Author Topic: Any idea how long till ToD?  (Read 2434 times)

Offline Rolex

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Any idea how long till ToD?
« Reply #75 on: January 26, 2005, 09:50:41 AM »
Can I get everyone's business contact information please? Just post it here, thank you.

I'd like to write to your firms and give you some unsolicited business advice about your future products or services. I don't have to know anything about your future products, I can just speculate and tell you how you will fail.

Thank you and I look forward to offering this advice.

Offline Tilt

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« Reply #76 on: January 26, 2005, 09:53:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wotan
There's a difference in historical mission profiles, i.e. immersion and 'role playing'.

But history should not supplant game play.

None of us want to be bored with endless flights with no contact etc...



I agree game play is all............. folk should be able to dip in and out  along side those who want to "develop" within the Tour.

Its the idea of individual growth development which I promote here......and  role, points or rank should be subserviant to such growth.

Further avatar growth development should be subserviant to the game play supplied thru the mission machine............


We can see that folk enjoy on going upgrades in terms of new rides and new stuff...............hence a TOD loosely based upon the ride and armament deployment of 43 to 45 will offer  upgrades.

basically Avatars have an entry level which in 43 could be the "rides of the day" eg P51B or p38J. 109G6 or FWA5. Even at the entry level Avatars have some options to vary the mission choice.

Folk joining in "44" have a higher entry level. (the entry level rises as the tour progresses)

However by earning points folk also gather more options. They may be offerred transfer options to other newly formed groups with new ac (ahead of the entry level) They may be offerred early access to ac upgrades within the existing group type.

Some groups may get differing minor upgrades......... new weapon systems (rockets, gondalas, bigger drop tanks?) or  field based engine modification options(GM?).....as these are introduced the avatar grows new options of game play and mission variety.

Some very success full avatars may be offerred high level stuff (262/162/163 elite group membership, a combat test in a 152)

Some options may be with respect to promotion into "responsible roles" which bring greater reward and give an element of partial control over mission and game play.

Whilst using history and using rank and using role the purpose is to create growth beyond completing the next mission. A hook.

Some other minor thoughts.............


Event anticipation........a schedule of missions posted in advance will allow folk to sign up and plan/practice.......... some missions (eg alternate missions) could be set on the scheduler so that folk can sign up for them in advance. Thus groups (squads) can fly together as freinds etc. Folk registered and not inplace with xmins to go loose the assigned slot.

Basically in this way folk can get as immersed (or not) as they wish.

Avatar accounts..............

if AH2 comes with 2 free TOD avatars in the $15/month but some folk want more choice of mission options then they can buy them say in pairs at an extra $5/month(example). Some times they may only want them for short runs but it builds in an extra possible revenue stream.
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Offline Sikboy

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« Reply #77 on: January 26, 2005, 09:56:03 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rolex


Thank you and I look forward to offering this advice.


If you were a client I'd be intrested in hearing it.

-Sik
You: Blah Blah Blah
Me: Meh, whatever.

Offline Tilt

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« Reply #78 on: January 26, 2005, 09:57:49 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rolex
I'd like to write to your firms and give you some unsolicited business advice about your future products or services.  


Its a hobby of mine............. anybodies business.........but I would never call it advice...........just trying to tease thru the options like one may try to calculate the best move in someone elses chess game.............
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Offline Rolex

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« Reply #79 on: January 26, 2005, 10:00:16 AM »
I've never had a client ever offer unsolicited advice about how I should invest my time and money. That would be rude.

That is all I'm trying to say. Thinking through the possibilites may be fun for you, but it is their business. How they invest their time and money is none of your business. And many of the people on this board are not even clients.

It is my opinion and I've stated it. You are free to disagree, but I'm not going to play BBS tag about it.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2005, 10:08:18 AM by Rolex »

Offline Westy

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« Reply #80 on: January 26, 2005, 10:04:10 AM »
What planet do you live on?  Users and consumers all over this world have always given manufacturers and service providers thier unsolicited opinion, advice and  feedback on current or future products.

 If a client of yours never did any of that maybe you ought to ask yourself why. Perhaps it's your industry or line of business? Or maybe you do not come across as open minded or as someone who is a listens.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2005, 10:07:55 AM by Westy »

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #81 on: January 26, 2005, 10:20:22 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rolex
Can I get everyone's business contact information please? Just post it here, thank you.

I'd like to write to your firms and give you some unsolicited business advice about your future products or services. I don't have to know anything about your future products, I can just speculate and tell you how you will fail.

Thank you and I look forward to offering this advice.
ROFL! It's not HTC's product I'm worried about. I'm sure it will be splediferous...

It's the player base, and whether they are prepared to accept TOD that is a much more realistic concern.

As I understand it, based on the discussions above and what I knew from before, TOD is going to be much more of a team effort, with much less scope for personal glorification - just as real WW2 combat was. (The accolades came later - to those who survived, and maybe posthumously for those who didn't) It's not going to be an arena in which you can pick your favourite uberplane, grab ten wingmen and go blasting away at anything that moves that has a red icon. It's not going to be an arena in which you can dictate the locations of the bases, or whine for the fields to be moved closer together.

Lazs and I think Nopoop estimated that if an RPS was introduced, 90% of players would quit. If this estimate is accurate, one wonders how popular TOD would be given that not only will the planeset be restricted as with an RPS, but so too will be the gameplay.

How attractive will TOD be to the masses who have made declarations like "I fly for me, not for you/So what if you dies? It's a game/If I've brought bombs, I'm going to drop 'em. I don't care about *your* war/It's MY $14.95/ You want me to fly *your* way, give me your CC details/Waaaah - if ENY comes, I go/Waaah - I couldn't have an LA7" - ???

How attractive will TOD be to those who simply want an egofix? We all have our own idea of how numerous those guys are!

Just some thoughts.

Offline Sikboy

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« Reply #82 on: January 26, 2005, 10:23:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rolex
I've never had a client ever offer unsolicited advice about how I should invest my time and money. That would be rude.
 


Or usefull.

HTC has provided this forum for the general discussion of Aces High. In that sense, discussion about the future direction of Aces High is neither unsolicited, nor rude. You could make a case that all ToD topics should be moved to the "gameplay Feedback and requests" forum, but I believe that there must be a certain degree of overlap.

I have full faith that HTC has given great consideration to most of what is being discussed here. I also think that having external viewpoints expressed in a considerate manner, especially in instances where opposing viewpoints are conserned, is valuble and constructive.

If HiTech didn't find some value in the thread himself, I don't think he would have read it.  

-Sik

p.s. you're it :p
You: Blah Blah Blah
Me: Meh, whatever.

Offline Rolex

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« Reply #83 on: January 26, 2005, 10:27:21 AM »
What is wrong with you people?

Do you visit your local grocery store and ask to see the manager, then stand in front of the cash registers and start pointing out to him how he is using his resources foolishly and he his going to lose money.

Talking about what you'd like to see in a product is one thing, but don't go telling people how to manage their resources, time and money.


"It's the player base, and whether they are prepared to accept TOD that is a much more realistic concern." -- Beet1e

This is not your concern. It is not your business. You are not even a bloody customer.

Sorry for the disturbance, I'll exit stage left.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2005, 10:32:25 AM by Rolex »

Offline Sikboy

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« Reply #84 on: January 26, 2005, 10:50:31 AM »
Never mind. This is getting too untracked.

-Sik
You: Blah Blah Blah
Me: Meh, whatever.

Offline Westy

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« Reply #85 on: January 26, 2005, 10:53:20 AM »
Beet1e your discussion always seems to revolve around TOD being aimed at the current player base and you are constantly referring to past discussions where an RPS was "suggested" to replace an existing free-for-all MA setup.  TOD will not replace the MA so IMO past discussions for/against changing the MA to use an RPS are moot and irrelevant.
 And while I'm sure there are players currently using the CT and MA who will enjoy "TOD" in my opinion most who would like "TOD"  have already left AH - for other games such as IL2 or WWIIO.  
 
 IMO if TOD isn't wrought with design flaws* or plays like an online shoot-em up arcade IMO it will appeal to a player base (IL2, EAW, WWIIO and more) that is FAR larger than what is currently subscribing to play in the MA.







 The * denotes potential valuable unsolicited customer/potential customer "advice" and feedback which is offered pro-bono by myself and others who have past experience with this specific type of gameplay.  HTC aren't dummies and I'm sure that TOD will be well thought out and designed. But they cannot think of everything. They'll miss loop holes in the gameplat that and there will be features discussed that they may like to implment.  HTC has been open to and have used customer "advice" and suggestions" very nicely in the past.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2005, 11:04:21 AM by Westy »

Offline Wotan

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« Reply #86 on: January 26, 2005, 10:56:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rolex
Can I get everyone's business contact information please? Just post it here, thank you.

I'd like to write to your firms and give you some unsolicited business advice about your future products or services. I don't have to know anything about your future products, I can just speculate and tell you how you will fail.

Thank you and I look forward to offering this advice.


Post one quote that says 'HT you better do it this way'...

This a discussion forum, we are discussing the different things we, as individuals, would like or expect to see in a game. Tilt and I disagree in some respects and I suspect HT may have a different view all together. I ma sure most of the posters have their own  wishes as well.

If you don't want to participate in the discussion or if you feel this type of discussion is out of place why bother to say anything at all?

HT can decide for himself how much unsolicited advice he can take. In fact 90% of the threads on this forum are 'unsolicited advice'.

Tilt,

We have drifted somewhat away from the original reason I replied.

You made the suggestion that there's the possibility of greater timidity in ToD. I would agree if the structure of the game is mainly focused on career and advancement as a goal. Career, advancement and better aircraft are all fine carrots to reward given types behaviors, flying to live, flying with a purpose, working as team etc...

I just wouldn't like to see this aspect of 'role playing' become the primary reason most participate in ToD. It's similar to the main in that base capture used to provide something to fight over. It added to combat, now for some (a good number of folks actually) base capture and map resetting are their primary focus and reason for playing.

Combat suffers.

I would hope that ToD would be designed from the ground up with the idea that game play and combat are the corner stone and that everything else be built around it.

Its my opinion that those who take the greatest risk (death and a harsh penalty) get the greatest reward (killing the enemy and fullfilling your mission). Simply suriviving a mission ought to provide a low minimum reward.  On top of that the missions, I would hope, are designed to facilitate combat rather then just, 'recce sector XXX and land'.

I undertsand HT has some sort of training planned and maybe those types mission would work for training. If there are to many of those or too many where there is no contact with the enemy then folks may pick and choose the less risky missions just to advance.

Jabo mission may or may not include contact with the enemy, these are inherently risky anyway depending on the ack etc...

Before some mentions it, I don't think missions should be so difficult that there's very little chance to survive or complete it. Newer players wont put up with that for long.

Howver, I am for immersive historic missions, scoring advancement and rank etc...

As I said in scenarios you may spend the majority of time flying about but then once the combat commences, even though it maybe brief, it defines the experience (at least for me).
« Last Edit: January 26, 2005, 11:01:07 AM by Wotan »

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #87 on: January 26, 2005, 11:08:56 AM »
Westy - fair enough. All I'm trying to say is that you can have the best product in the world, and still not be able to sell it, eg. the best skiing equipment money can buy will not sell in Africa.

If we're talking about new or repeat customers for TOD, I might be one along with many others who have put their accounts on hold because the MA holds no interest. But if we're talking about attracting hordes of NEW customers at a stroke, I'll believe it when I see it - and I'll be delighted if I do.

Offline Tilt

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« Reply #88 on: January 26, 2005, 02:01:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wotan

I would hope that ToD would be designed from the ground up with the idea that game play and combat are the corner stone and that everything else be built around it.

Its my opinion that those who take the greatest risk (death and a harsh penalty) get the greatest reward (killing the enemy and fullfilling your mission).  


hmmm

I suppose really we would expect the combat/time ratio to be much higher in the MA than in TOD.

So TOD then hopefully offers better structure and so higher quality combat...........

However the quality of combat is also down to the quality of opponent............ there can be no certainty of out come here.

If escorts are tasked to escort then should they really be rewarded for leaving their  post to chase interceptors into a furball.

If interceptors are tasked to strike at bombers then should they really be rewarded for engaging escorts to practice their ACM.

If ground attackers are tasked to hit a certain ground target, should they drop ord and engage the first LW they see and be rewarded?

The only mission with true combat only appeal you speak of would be CAP.

How much Rhubarbing did the 8th actually do?

Post 43 how much did the LW do in the WETO.?

But  folk of Urchins motivation would fall into CAP roles in which they could develop.

For me that alone would get boring if it was the only mission type I wished to repeat.

The choice of WETO and the 8th pushes the design toward a strategic air war and to focus on air combat at the price of (historic) mission objective would strike me as odd.


But none of the above really decides upon whether the opponent is "timid" and only chooses combat he can win or  a "lunatic" who HO's every opponent with fingers crossed.
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Offline Wotan

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« Reply #89 on: January 26, 2005, 03:06:01 PM »
Actual combat time is a limitation of range and fuel consumption.

Quality combat means the intensity of the fight once its on. Its not dependent on overall combat time.

Unit v Unit combat is a different thing the 1 on 1 or groups of individuals in a fur ball. A unit maybe effective even though the individual skill levels with in the unit are some what low.

When folks flying as a unit understanding their role and are given proper direction they can become an effective fighting force.

Quote
f escorts are tasked to escort then should they really be rewarded for leaving their post to chase interceptors into a furball.


The escorts primary role should be to see to it that the bombers make it to and from target.

Then to ensure they minimize their own losses.

The escorts should have a greater freedom of action then interceptors. I would hope they weren't forced into close escort all the time.

If their success is dependent upon the bombers survival it only stands to reason that they would do what ever it takes to protect them. If the bombers don't make it to target or lose a large % then the escorts have failed their mission and should get no credit at all. If they defend the bombers and get a few kills they they should get points for the mission and a multiplier applied for their kills.

Quote
If interceptors are tasked to strike at bombers then should they really be rewarded for engaging escorts to practice their ACM.


If you are tasked with bomber interception you must either kill xx % of the bombers or ensure xx% of the bombers target remains intact. On top of that you must minimize your own losses.

If don't kill or stop the bombers from destroying the target then you should not get credit for the mission.

If you complete the mission you should get the mission points and a multiplier applied for any kills you got.

If you just run off to furball and ignore the mission then you should get nothing.

Quote
if ground attackers are tasked to hit a certain ground target, should they drop ord and engage the first LW they see and be rewarded?


Ground attackers should be required to kill XX% of their target to get credit for the mission. Any kills they get on the ground or in the air would be part of a multiplier.

Where you end up with lots a of timidity is when by just completing the mission alone, regardless if you killed anything, you earn the same as the guy who killed multiple ground targets then shot down 2 enemy. The guys that do that ought to earn more and be rewarded more then the guy who did little except take-off.

If not you will run into those who just hang back and avoid risk. As I said the greater the risk the greater the reward.

All sorts of missions can be run if the victory conditions are set in a fashion that rewards mission success first but then rewards performance. Folks would be more encouraged to fight rather then hang back and hide.

You can have historic mission profiles and encourage combat at the same time.

mission success = low minimum points

kills = high multiplier

If not you get guys who will hang back and earn a living off of what others are doing

no mission success = no points at all

This will discourage those who would run off and ignore the mission

bail or ditch = you get mission points + whatever multiplier for the kills you got -  points for the lost aircraft

This will encourage folks to try and make it home in their aircraft. If not they might just bail in the face of trouble.

death or capture = - points (hopefully in a high enough amount to make death painfully)

This will encourage folks to avoid suicide.

With out a high death penalty there's less encouragement to survive. If its too high and not offset by a high kill multiplier then you encourage folks to avoid risk.