Author Topic: Straiga your multi engine images  (Read 1799 times)

Offline HoHun

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Straiga your multi engine images
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2005, 05:03:14 PM »
Hi Golfer,

>This extra speed creates extra lift and causes a roll to the right. [...]

>This only happens when the rudder is deflected in flight, with the rudder trimmed and the ball centered, no such rolling moment exists.

Hm, what is the optimum equilibrium for long-range cruise in our co-rotating, symmetrical twin?

From Straiga's summary for a single-engined aircraft, I'd expect a small side-slip in order to compensate for torque.

I'd expect the same for a twin, as it has twice the torque. The generally larger airframe might mean that less sideslip is needed anyway, I guess.

With the ball centered, it's still possible to be side-slipping I believe?

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Golfer

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« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2005, 05:11:46 PM »
You are going to do the best in Coordinated flight (ball centered)

The only time you don't want the ball centered in normal flight is when you have an engine out in a twin.  You will then want to establish what is called a 'Zero Sidelsip' condition which actually splits the ball on the line toward the good engine.

I'm sure down in his images somewhere it includes this information.

The ATP book page 2-3 has Zero Sideslip info.

That is for flight in a Multi engine airplane while flying on a single, not just a piston single.

Straiga where'd ya get the ATP books?  Did you instruct there?  Attend way back when?

Offline Straiga

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Straiga your multi engine images
« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2005, 05:55:42 PM »
Ok guys were getting there.
 

Multi-engine with one eng out;

Yaw1: Due to one engine out, it yaws either left or right, depends on what engine is producing thrust, yawing the airplane into the dead engine. Byproduct: Side Slip: Byproduct Drag.
 
Adverse Yaw1: Due to asymmetric aileron, to keep the dead engine wing 5 % banked into good engine, one wing moves forward creating lift on that wing and unequal lift effect: Byproduct: A Yaw moment away from the good engine and a rolling moment into the good engine: Byproduct Drag. Side Slip: Byproduct Drag

Asymmetric Lift1: Due to good engine producing prop wash airflow across the wing: Byproduct: Rolling moment into the dead engine.


To Counter Forces;
 
Yaw1: To counter Yaw (Rudder)
Byproduct of Rudder: Drag.
Byproduct of Rudder: Side Slip rolling moment toward the good engine.
Byproduct of Side Slip: Drag.

Adverse Yaw 1: To counter Yaw (Rudder)
Byproduct  of Rudder: Drag.
Byproduct of Rudder: Side Slip rolling moment toward the good engine.
Byproduct of Side Slip: Drag.

Asymmetric Lift1: to counter this (Rudder) and (Aileron) 5% bank into the good engine: Byproduct of Rudder: Drag.
Byproduct of Rudder: Side Slip rolling moment toward the good engine.
Byproduct of Aileron: Yaw moment away from the good engine. Byproduct of Aileron: Rolling moment into the good engine. Byproduct Drag.
Byproduct of Aileron: Side Slip Drag.

Later Straiga
« Last Edit: February 08, 2005, 05:58:43 PM by Straiga »

Offline HoHun

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Straiga your multi engine images
« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2005, 01:36:00 PM »
Hi Straiga,

>Multi-engine with one eng out;

[...]

>To Counter Forces;
 
Good way of summing it up - how would it look like for the symmetrical airframe, co-rotating engine twin in stabilized cruise? I think we might be able to sort it out after all :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Straiga

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« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2005, 06:49:20 PM »
Hey HoHun,

A twin engine in cruise flight with both props turning the same direction (Co-Rotating). Is this what were talking about, if it is.

Both engine are producing equal thrust and both wings have equal prop wash induced airflow across them. At level flight with no positive angle of attach there is no P-factor present. P-factor is only present in a nose high or positive angle of attach, which will yaw the airframe to the left. In a single engine situation the when the right is only running P-Factor and engine thrust will yaw to the left the airframe far more because of the leverage it exerts from the length away from the CG. With the left engine only running the P-Factor wants to yaw the airframe to the left but the thrust is greater and will yaw the airframe to the right. We get P-Factor in a single engine situation because of the asymmetric Lift nose high angle of attach.

In straight and level flight with both engines running all forces are balanced. Aileron trim is at 0, rudder trim is slightly to the right due to prop slipstream, elevator trim set to hold a given airspeed.

If you think that there would be an induced roll due to engine torque. Well lets discuss this a little. Torgue effects is at its greatest in power application or power reduction in a single engine airplane. With a strong power application there is a greater torque moment. Most pilots just dont jam the throttle to the engine, to reduce the torque effect they add power gradually and to counter this rudder can be used. But aileron can be used also but when you use aileron, you get a adverse aileron effect and sideslip which yaws the plane into the direction of engine torque moment. Correct? So now you need more rudder and more drag of the airframe, this is less efficient then just using rudder and to reduce sideslip to 0. With a decrease in engine torque the single engine plane will yaw to the right, rudder is used to counter this effect. In cruse flight engine torque is present but is not a great influence on the airframe so a slight right rudder trim is used to counter this at a 0 sideslip.

Multi-engine airplane do not experience this torque roll effect. This is a different airframe all together the engine are mounted on the wings and the engine and props are mounted inline to the nose of the airframe, way forward of the CG. Now if you take and draw a line from the CG straight out to the engine placement and measure the distance we have some kind of leveage on the CG. Now draw a line from the engine to the most forward point were the prop location is, and measure the distance. The leverage arm has increased more, and this leverage is off the center of gravity, and off the longitudnal axis. Buy using the coefficient of yaw formula you can calculate the yaw force induced on the airframe. But nowhere is there a input for torque effect in the yaw coefficient formula.

The placement of the engine from the CG and longitudnal axis, torque forces are deminished due to the placement of the engines, but engine thrust and P-Factor and prop slipstream forces have increased.

 Now when you see the picture of a twin provided by Hitech you can see this. Lets take the right wing and engine, if the engine is running the wing would rotate the oposit of the props direction of rotation. If I took the hand of god and grab the left wing tip the wing rotation would stop. Lets call the hand of god the fuselage. With now mounted to the left wing tip and the fuselage that has a horizontal stabilizer and elevators, by using up elevator you can stop this rotation in flight. But what happens know because torque force is deminished by the fuselage and elevator force, the placement of the engine will try to create some force or leverage on the airframe.
Remembur that the fuselage is in the CG and longitudnal axis or the pivot point in the roll axis and yaw axis. The engine is the pivot point or roll axis for torque force in a single engine airplane, but not in a multi-engine when the engine is mounted on the wing away from the fuselage center pivot point. This is where the fuselage has a greater moment then the engine torque moment. All the engine can do know is roll the plane to the left by asymmetric lift and yaw, due to the P-Factor and the engine thrust around the pivot point roll and yaw axis. So by using rudder on the fuselage roll and yaw moment, this can counter this force, which has a further distances from the CG and has a bigger leverage arm then the engine. But when airspeed is decreased you will lose this leverage and the airplane will stall/spin out of controll.

The same goes for the left hand engine and the hand of god thing and all other things relate to the right engine.

Later Straiga

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2005, 01:58:59 AM »
Hi Straiga,

>In straight and level flight with both engines running all forces are balanced. Aileron trim is at 0, rudder trim is slightly to the right due to prop slipstream, elevator trim set to hold a given airspeed.

With the slight rudder trim, would that mean we're flying at a slight sideslip?

>Torgue effects is at its greatest in power application or power reduction in a single engine airplane. With a strong power application there is a greater torque moment. Most pilots just dont jam the throttle to the engine, to reduce the torque effect they add power gradually and to counter this rudder can be used.

Actually, the torque is at its maximum when the engine is producing full power, but I agree that from a piloting perspective, the change in torque is more important than the absolute torque.

That's why I'm convinced that the higher rotational inertia of twins plays a big role for reducing torque effects - the Twin Mustangs has about 12 times the rotational inertia of the P-51, and only two times the torque, so the torque effects you describe are reduced by a factor of six!

>Now if you take and draw a line from the CG straight out to the engine placement and measure the distance we have some kind of leveage on the CG.

Well, torque is a moment, and moments are not localized. It doen't matter where the engine is located, only the way its rotation axis is oriented.

>With now mounted to the left wing tip and the fuselage that has a horizontal stabilizer and elevators, by using up elevator you can stop this rotation in flight.

But for the other engine, situated on the other side of the fuselage, you'd need down elevator to stop the rotation.

If you put the aircraft together, you'll see that the elevator's force is applied at the same lateral position at the centre of gravity, so it generates no rolling moment about the centre of gravity at all. (Else you'd get a roll every time you apply elevator.)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Straiga

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« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2005, 03:37:51 AM »
Quote
With the slight rudder trim, would that mean we're flying at a slight sideslip?


0 Sideslip, 0 Roll, 0 Pitch, 0 Yaw, Ball centered.

Quote
Well, torque is a moment, and moments are not localized. It doen't matter where the engine is located, only the way its rotation axis is oriented.


Im not clear on what your saying.

Quote
But for the other engine, situated on the other side of the fuselage, you'd need down elevator to stop the rotation.


But with both wings attached 0 elevator. Up elevator right wing only. Down elevator left wing only.

Quote
If you put the aircraft together, you'll see that the elevator's force is applied at the same lateral position at the centre of gravity, so it generates no rolling moment about the centre of gravity at all. (Else you'd get a roll every time you apply elevator.)


Elevator is in the pitch axis not in the lateral axis. I dont see where you get that the elevator is at the same lateral axis at the CG. Did I miss something?

Quote
Actually, the torque is at its maximum when the engine is producing full power, but I agree that from a piloting perspective, the change in torque is more important than the absolute torque.


True we feel more in the change in torque then constant torque.
With differential incidences in the main wing, vertical stabilizer set to a angle of attach left of center line, one wing clipped shorter than the other, engine mount setting the engine nose down and to the right. All this rigging in the airframe keeps the plane countering torque from the engine in straight and level flight with a steady state airspeed with little or no trim required for a single engine airplane. In multi-engines some rigging is in the airframe but not to counter torque.

Man its tuff to talk and not be able to draw something or work with visuals to help you understand this.

Later Straiga

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #37 on: February 10, 2005, 12:53:22 PM »
Hi Straiga,

>Im not clear on what your saying.

Well, physically a moment is sort of a disembodied force/moment arm combination. It will try to rotate stuff, but won't really care for the axis. If the aircraft is on the ground, torque will try to roll the aircraft around one mainwheel tyre contact point, if it's in the air, around the centre of gravity.

So if you have two co-rotating engines, you have two times the torque no matter where they are located. Something else has to be there to counteract it, and that's what I'm looking for.

I'd expect some sideslip in stabilized cruise even for a twin, but now you tell me there is none, so I'm a bit at a loss right now ...

>Elevator is in the pitch axis not in the lateral axis. I dont see where you get that the elevator is at the same lateral axis at the CG. Did I miss something?

Well, not really - we're both struggling with English terminology :-)

Lateral control is rotation around the vertical axis, the lateral position is translation along the left-right (lateral) axis.

Since the elevator (centre) is in the same left-right (lateral) position as the centre of gravity, so elevator forces generate no moment about the centre of gravity and cannot counteract torque.

>Man its tuff to talk and not be able to draw something or work with visuals to help you understand this.

And I am explaining stuff in a foreign language to increase the difficulty factor even further ;-) But I think we're making progress!

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Golfer

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« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2005, 01:03:48 PM »
this and the rest of these threads need some beer and a game of pool or darts.

Offline Bodhi

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« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2005, 03:04:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Golfer
this and the rest of these threads need some beer and a game of pool or darts.


that and a lie detector
I regret doing business with TD Computer Systems.

Offline Golfer

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« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2005, 03:20:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bodhi
that and a lie detector


I wouldn't pass judgement yet, just because you think its ok.

I mean, if you can come up with something that says "here this is proof you are not telling the truth" it's one thing.  It's another if you are just saying because you feel something is improbable or unlikely and then deciding its impossible.

Make it a bottle of 16yr Jameson to the winner?