I'm unusually proud to be an American today...

[Rolex]

I'll start a new topic, Beet1e.

I'm afraid it's going to be pretty long.

Some historical background has to be blended into the current global situation, then quite a few pieces have to be sewn together from 5 continents before being brought forward 15 years.

It is an 'interesting' snapshot of time.

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by beet1e
No trolls. Simpson has been a BBC war correspondent in Iraq for about 25 years. So I think maybe - just maybe - he knows a little more about it than you or me.

 

  What he knows, you and I will never know. What pleases the BBC is all we will ever see from him as long as they are making out the paycheck. Simple as that.

ow much of that are they going to take before someone asks what's it all for...

  It doesn`t have to be asked because the answer is allready known.

Lack of freedom? LOL - let's see, Holland next month, France in March, 2 weeks in Italy in the summer, invitations to the US and Ecuador pending...

  Freedom in your own country. You have handed it over willingly.
  I can understand why you are so happy about traveling .

Let me know the location of your one horse town, and I might buy you a drink at the saloon on my way through. If not, I'll just buy the town.

  One horse? Town?
  Any mass transit here where I live would probably be started by Keds.
  Lake Tawakoni Beet. S/SE of big D.
  Weuns don`t cotton much to them thar city folk around these parts.

  Come on down. There`s a cozy little biker bar here. If you don`t have your own knife, they have a few the house supplies to meet dress code.

 

Um... it may have escaped your notice, but we're in that war too - the second largest coalition force.

  LOL Nearly forgot this one.
  Yea I know Beet. Dragged kickin ,screaming and whimpering all the way and the first to start howling about getting out.

[beet1e]

Jackal!

What he knows, you and I will never know. What pleases the BBC is all we will ever see from him as long as they are making out the paycheck. Simple as that.

Well that's BS and you know it. The cameras don't lie. The same could be said for any reporter. I guess you believe what you want to believe. Just like we believed there were WMD in Iraq

Freedom in your own country. You have handed it over willingly.

I don't know what you're talking about. But then again, neither do you.

Tawakoni? Well I'll be damned. You might just be in luck. My pending invitation to the US is to visit a friend in Ft. Smith,AR. To get there, the most cost effective way is going to be a plane to the Big D (though unlikely to be an A380), then a rental car. I think it might be possible to take in LT. But a b-b-biker bar? What, silly hats and moustaches down to the knees, bad teeth, tattoos, dungarees and every third guy called "Bubba"? Kinda like that pool and chicken bar in "My Cousin Vinny"? Yeah, OK then - sounds like fun! We can talk about the good old days of the pizza map.

Back on topic - just been reading today's news about the elections in Iraq. Clearly very well received by the Iraqis, but Lazs will be along to tell us we've gone too far - they've given women the vote too.

Rolex - thanks for that - I'll look out for it.

[rabbidrabbit]

Originally posted by beet1e
It's not as if your injured troops get star treatment when they get home. No, they are abandoned to voluntary donations through PayPal.

Actually Beetle, The Veterans Administration hospitals are generally well regarded despite the load they have had placed on them.  The system itself has higher satisfaction ratings than civilian counterparts and there are a number of world leading research projects being funded by the VA.

[slimm50]

Originally posted by beet1e
As someone from the country who stood shoulder to shoulder with America, and sent in the second largest  deployment of military forces, my feelings are mixed.

Yes, I think it was right to go in - based on what we were told by the CIA/MI6 beforehand. Unfortunately, the inability to find WMD is at best embarrassing, and at worst has far reaching repercussions.

What would have been better is if the job were to have been finished in 1991. There's no doubt Saddam had WMD - these were used against the Kurds in 1988.

But the somewhat glaring disparity between what weapons W claimed Iraq had and the actual findings from 2003 to the present means that  next time we're in a situation where a country poses a threat to western security, the pres./PM/CIA/MI6 are going to have an uphill struggle to convince the public of the need to go to war.  I don't agree that the mere passage of time renders a monumental decision to launch a major war campaign "irrelevant".

Beet, I agree with much of your statement, and welcome your reasoned argument. However, no one, including you, has mentioned the fact that Sadd_one was threatened with just this kind of action, albeit tacitly, many years before it was actually carried out, due to his repeated violations of multiple UN resolutions. That alone should be enough to have warranted this action, in my opinion. Screw the WMD excuse: it wasn't needed.

[Estel]

Originally posted by Suave
You must be from same place boroda is. Thanks, you reinforced my point.

I never need to hide where I'm from. Yes I was born in USSR. And now live here. And I know about your Troyan Horse with the masks of "Altruism" and "American Democracy".

So basically you believe that the UN and Nato were the aggressors in Korea and the Balkans.

The war started against one of the europe countries without any permission from UN can be named only as Aggession.

If you believe this then you head is probably full of **** like Katyn was not perpetrated by the USSR. And that Stalin committed no genocide. Like I said, an education of lies that you find easier to accept than the truth.

Really? Maybe you will confirm that USA is guilty in war crimes in Vietnam and Korea? Or not? Or this is still Soviet propaganda? There is no question, do I believe it or not. It's fact. It was happened. Do you believe it? Do you know, that many people in Russia still believe that Stalin was right in killing "Enemy's of Public"? And they not just believe it. They believe that this still the only way to create and manipulate such big empire like USSR was.

Yes well lucky for me I live in an evil capitalist country where my mail isn't monitored and I can say whatever I want without fearing that I will lose my job.

Looks like Echelone was our creation....

Sure they can call themselves russians. It's the soviets who were the enemy of the russians, they enslaved your country. Just like the nazi's enlaved germany.

The socialism was the choice of people of that time. I hope we will not discute here about different ways of communism and socialism. So, it was the way of the whole nation. Not only Lenin or Stalin as you can think. And I guess we don't need to discute was it good or not for Russia, because you are not Russian. And you can not know it, how people lived in USSR and now in Russia. And how did they live before.

The only I see, you didn't answer.

[mosgood]

Originally posted by beet1e
Jackal!  Well that's BS and you know it. The cameras don't lie. The same could be said for any reporter. I guess you believe what you want to believe. Just like we believed there were WMD in Iraq I don't know what you're talking about. But then again, neither do you.

Tawakoni? Well I'll be damned. You might just be in luck. My pending invitation to the US is to visit a friend in Ft. Smith,AR. To get there, the most cost effective way is going to be a plane to the Big D (though unlikely to be an A380), then a rental car. I think it might be possible to take in LT. But a b-b-biker bar? What, silly hats and moustaches down to the knees, bad teeth, tattoos, dungarees and every third guy called "Bubba"? Kinda like that pool and chicken bar in "My Cousin Vinny"? Yeah, OK then - sounds like fun! We can talk about the good old days of the pizza map.

Back on topic - just been reading today's news about the elections in Iraq. Clearly very well received by the Iraqis, but Lazs will be along to tell us we've gone too far - they've given women the vote too.

Rolex - thanks for that - I'll look out for it.

Beetle, true cameras don't lie, but editors DO discrimenate about what  shots are shown and they are very good at making shots tell THIER story.

All the american press says about the Iraqi conflict is negative.  All they talk about is how the dems call for it to stop and all the people over there that want us out.  This is in direct conflict with what I hear from every serviceman I have talked with or my friends have talked with.  They talk about how most of the people in Iraq really ARE glad that we are over there, from first hand experience.  These poeple are risking their lives over there, they would they  come home and lay down this stuff if it was bull****?  They would be coming home bitter if otherwise.

Sure there are a few that I have seen on T.V. that denounce the war.... the press always seem to find these guys... but all I find are guys that  have felt appreciation from the Iraqis.  My problem with this discontinuity of messages is... if all I find are people that say one thing but the press seems to only see the direct opposite.... I have to question the info the press is offering up.... camera shots and all.

[beet1e]

Originally posted by slimm50
Beet, I agree with much of your statement, and welcome your reasoned argument. However, no one, including you, has mentioned the fact that Sadd_one was threatened with just this kind of action, albeit tacitly, many years before it was actually carried out, due to his repeated violations of multiple UN resolutions. That alone should be enough to have warranted this action, in my opinion. Screw the WMD excuse: it wasn't needed.

Slimm, I agree with you - and I did say much the same thing in one of the O-Club posts leading up to Gulf War Part 2. Whenever posting about it, I always considered it it not as a new war, but as the completion of a job that had been started 12 years earlier.

Mosgood - fair enough. I have met Iraqis - on a Christmas holiday in Tenerife in 1991 - less than a year after the Gulf war part 1. I had an American wife then - and the Iraqis insisted on buying us both dinner one night! They had no problem with what the coalition had done earlier that year. But they hated Saddam with a passion.

But we can't argue with the fact that no WMD have been found - or is the reporting of this matter just another media conspiracy??? And there's no denying the level of insurgency, and the deaths of more than 1400 US service personnel since the hostilities began. Not even the media can fake that!

[mauser]

I'm very happy the Iraqis have been given the opportunity to vote, and also proud that our forces were partly responsible for making it happen.  I'm sure that they are proud of the moment as well.  I'm also glad the folks that make the decisions didn't cave and yank them all out prematurely.  Oh what a number that would have done on morale.  

In Gen. Tommy Franks (Ret) book, he mentions meetings with King Abdullah II of Jordan and President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt during the beginning of 2003 as CENTCOM CinC.   King Abdullah II was quoted as saying to him "General, from reliable intelligence sources, I believe the Iraqis are hiding chemical and biological weapons."  President Mubarak was quoted as saying "General Franks, you must be very, very careful.  We have spoken with Saddam Hussein.  He is a madman.  He was WMD--biologicals, actually--and he will use them on your troops."  

Later, during the opening moves of OIF, Gen. Franks mentions that they received urgent intelligence that "Republican Guard units in Baghdad  had moved south to the city of Al Kut--and that they had been issued mustard gas and an unknown nerve agent."  

It seems a lot of things were pointing in the direction that they were there and they were going to be used.  Our forces were wearing their protective suits for the beginning of the war.  But now, as to why haven't any stockpiles been found yet - don't know.  Maybe Jordan and Egypt secretly wanted Hussein and his government to go down too?  

+1 on the troops that made the vote happen.

mauser

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Suave
Yes I understand, your education was a lie. And the idea of any government motivated by altruism is so alien to you that it's simply an unacceptable idea.

My education was probably much better then your comic books. It included using my own brain on the facts I see. I was also told to avoid blind faith in Newton's laws, god, eternal blue sky or democracy.

Originally posted by Suave
Maybe you don't have the courage to accept the bitter truth that the USSR was no better than nazi germany and embrace progress like much of the rest of your countrymen have done.

USSR was no better then nazi germany? Another [edit] repeating this new-fangled nazi rhethorics?

Did you read any books on WWII history? I advise you to find something about Nuremburg court, it must be a revelation for you.

Progress?! Definetly, "democracy" is a great progress on the way of abandoning total education, free medical care and paid jobs for everyone. Progress means coca-cola and chewing gum instead of this useless stuff, does't it?

Originally posted by Suave
Nobody can be this stupid guys. I'm convinced he only says lunatic things like this to keep his job.

Oh really? I had a nice experience with Americans and one project that I took part in. I was amazed at how many people sent me personal e-mails, apologising for having to bait me in public, and saying they support us but can't do it openly...

Originally posted by Suave
It's sad, but some things haven't changed in russia. Many russians are thankfull that we helped liberate them from the soviets, not you. You're either very weak minded, which I doubt. Or you're only saying things that you don't honestly believe because you're concerned about your personal future.

Liberated us from total education, free medical care, paid jobs for everyone and pensions for old people. But you couldn't do it yourself by force and weapons, there were our own traitors and idiots who did the job. Unfortunately, we still have the same gang of crooks here.

[texace]

Hell Boroda I don't really know. I got through high school, I'm enrolled in university and doing quite well, and I'm a writer.

Gee, I guess I get all my education from comic books, right?

Why has this thread degraded? It doesn't matter the reasons behind anything...everyone disagrees and thinks they know best. It's no more than a mudslinging contest...

[rabbidrabbit]

Hell Boroda, you are a never ending source of amusement.. I know it's pointless to debate with you so I'll just tip my hat and thanks for proving that propaganda works well on the weak minded.

[GRUNHERZ]

Thanks Boroda, you are really showing these guys the utter superiority of the soviet system in all fields and endeavors.

To all capitalist pigs:

Click on link below, wait for song to begin, then gaze intently at the image of the great Lenin!

EXPERIENCE BORODA'S WORLD AND SEE THE TRUTH

[vorticon]

" It simply is. You and most others do not understand the policy and doctrine considerations that led to the invasion and your jumping to conclusions clearly confirms my point about average people.
 "

??? this statement alone confirms my conclusions...you have a ridiculous "holier than thou" attitude going on...

"Thanks Boroda, you are really showing these guys the utter superiority of the soviet system in all fields and endeavors. "

yeah, i like his defence of a system that a large number of people outlived is always entertaining...

darwin was right, and it doesnt just apply to living organisms...

[Suave]

Originally posted by Boroda

Oh really? I had a nice experience with Americans and one project that I took part in. I was amazed at how many people sent me personal e-mails, apologising for having to bait me in public, and saying they support us but can't do it openly...
 

I particularly like this bit.

Boroda, that's not even plausible. You can do better than that.