Author Topic: I'm unusually proud to be an American today...  (Read 5337 times)

Offline Suave

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I'm unusually proud to be an American today...
« Reply #90 on: January 31, 2005, 12:43:36 AM »
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Originally posted by Estel
Wow, maybe your eduation was better? Altruism and economical principals never could live together before. Looks like you are opening new era.
Do you know at least one country in the world, wich goverment or population is motivated by altruism?

You must be from same place boroda is. Thanks, you reinforced my point.

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Your kind of altruism is bombed Serbia and broken Korea. [/b]

So basically you believe that the UN and Nato were the aggressors in Korea and the Balkans. If you believe this then you head is probably full of **** like Katyn was not perpetrated by the USSR. And that Stalin committed no genocide. Like I said, an education of lies that you find easier to accept than the truth.



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It's very sad that you need to control what are you talking to keep your job. [/b]

Yes well lucky for me I live in an evil capitalist country where my mail isn't monitored and I can say whatever I want without fearing that I will lose my job.

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Yep. There are some things wich can't be changed in Russia. It's because of our country is too old. And it's too difficult to change mentality in interests of agressors. But always this defend us.[/b]

Nonsensical rationalization. Probably repeating what you've been told.



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I don't know anyone. Maybe because they don't live here anymore? If yes, they can not name themself "Russians". And sure, have no any right to thank anybody for USSR crash. [/b]
Sure they can call themselves russians. It's the soviets who were the enemy of the russians, they enslaved your country. Just like the nazi's enlaved germany.

 

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Our future is our country. I'm not sure, does "Motherland" mean something to. I'm not sure. Personal future is nothing without your nation. [/B]

Yeah... that makes sense, in a giberish nonsensical way.

Offline genozaur

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« Reply #91 on: January 31, 2005, 12:49:34 AM »
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Originally posted by Otto
Borda.....?!?   You're coming close to losing all contact with this Planet and drifting off into space.....:(


Guys, I don't want to scare you, but are you ready to find yourselves one day amid the remnants of the disbanded Union. You'd better listen attentively to what Boroda says, and do some simple extrapolations instead of calling him names.
You can't even realize to what extend you are brainwashed. At least try to listen (or read) and think more than you wastetalk.
Dividi et impera ! As individuals we are better off staying together.

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #92 on: January 31, 2005, 12:55:38 AM »
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Originally posted by genozaur
As individuals we are better off staying together.


Isn't the ability to stay apart what makes us individuals?
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Offline Suave

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« Reply #93 on: January 31, 2005, 12:55:51 AM »
Oh we listen to what he says. He's like a museum to us. A terrible reminder how utterly a stalinist government can controll people.

I would like to introduce him to some people, because they don't believe anybody who believes the things that boroda does still exist.

Offline Suave

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« Reply #94 on: January 31, 2005, 12:56:51 AM »
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Isn't the ability to stay apart what makes us individuals?


Logic and propoganda slogans don't mix.

Offline genozaur

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« Reply #95 on: January 31, 2005, 01:02:30 AM »
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Originally posted by OneWordAnswer
Katyn


http://library.flawlesslogic.com/dresden.htm

Offline genozaur

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« Reply #96 on: January 31, 2005, 01:08:19 AM »
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Isn't the ability to stay apart what makes us individuals?


In order to stay apart one has to be a part of something. Maybe of humanity ?  :D

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #97 on: January 31, 2005, 01:23:02 AM »
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Originally posted by genozaur
In order to stay apart one has to be a part of something.


So you're saying that... the very last specimen, or the only specimen of... anything really... cannot be alone because... it is incapable of being apart... as in order to apart there must be more of what does not exist?

I don't want this to be taken as a personal attack, and please don't take it as such, but I think that if brains were money and battleships were a nickel apiece, you wouldn't have the down payment on a kayak.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2005, 03:29:35 AM by Holden McGroin »
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Offline Rolex

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« Reply #98 on: January 31, 2005, 01:32:13 AM »
Vortican:

You're reading something into what I posted that isn't there. No opinion was offered about the legitimacy of the policy. None whatsoever. It simply is. You and most others do not understand the policy and doctrine considerations that led to the invasion and your jumping to conclusions clearly confirms my point about average people.

P.S.
For centuries, leaders have believed it is their destiny to shape the world into their vision using doctrines of what's best for humanity. Martin Luther, Lenin, Napolean, Churchill, FDR, Lincoln, Hitler, Stalin, Truman, Hussein, Chirac, Tojo, Mao...

NUKE:
The world condition changed significantly between the first Gulf War and the second. The US foreign policy doctrine changed also. Hussein was not so much of a problem - he was just an excellent opportunity. You're looking at one move and not the whole chess board.

Hussein did not challenge the US foreign policy doctrine, something else did. George Bush (and Tony Blair) both know that the true strategic imperative for action would fly over everyone's heads. No one would get it and the press and legislatures of both countries would have a field day. Hussein, WMD, freedom for Iraqis - they are collectively and individually more credible to Mr. and Mrs. Average than trying to explain the real reason. Mr. Bush isn't exactly a gifted orator, but I doubt anyone could explain it in such a way that most people will nod their head and say, "Yup."

Again (he adds because it's like talking to 8 year-old girls here with fragile egos), you are not wrong, but that's not the whole story. You're missing the cold, hard reality of global economics and power. The kind of reality and thinking that policy makers and doctrine makers use as calls to action. The triggers are not what you think they are.

I was going to say something about your 'avatar-like' naivete of the world,' but I won't. I don't think you're a bad guy at all. I just think you haven't considered the 'why' as broadly as you could.

The election in Iraq is a good thing. But it is irrelevant, in the cold, harsh minds of policy and doctrine makers.

None of this belongs in this thread. If I get some time this week, I'll write up what the real reason was (and is since Iraq is just the beginning) for you, NUKE. It won't be easy, but after you read it and think about it, you'll agree with it. There is no conjecture in the reasoning. As Sgt. Friday would say, "Just the facts..."

It won't change anyone's position, that isn't my point. It will just open your eyes to what a snapshot of global economics and geo-politics may look like 15 years from now. And there is your first hint about some of the reasons.

Offline Raider179

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« Reply #99 on: January 31, 2005, 02:10:16 AM »
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Originally posted by beet1e
In 1991, Israel was targeted by Saddam's Scuds, most of which were destroyed by US Patriot missiles. And Israel did not retaliate. I think maybe DD asked them not to.
QUOTE]

Yeah and this time Isreal said they would not if they were attacked by Iraq. I think they gave the impression they might nuke him if he tried that crap again.

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #100 on: January 31, 2005, 03:14:21 AM »
Mornin', Jackal.

I haven't seen anything here to make be change my mind when I said it's not good enough to go to war on a false prospectus, and then to try to invent reasons for having gone in the first place. I'm not saying that I disagreed with the decision to go in, but in light of how things have turned out, the US chest thumping is out of place, or premature at the very least.

Some jackal quotes:
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Otherwise tyrants such as these would just roll over the rest of the world.
And what has America been doing in the last 50 years?
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if you let wannabes like him, no matter what country, get a foothold and start rolling over others
same deal - we've had Viet Nam, we've had Iraq, we've had a few others in between. Now there's talk of doing Iran, maybe doing Syria - where's it going to end? How many US service personnel are going to die before your folks at home start to comprehend the cost in terms of American lives and say "Stop! Enough!".
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Were proud of our country and what we do for others and don`t mind showing it.
Dear me, I think I ought to send you the DVD of that Panorama broadcast. John Simpson spoke of many problems in the region, but the one he mentioned more than once was that it's difficult if not impossible to find Iraqi civilians who accept that their lot is better now than it was under Saddam.

Proud of what you do for others? What do you think your country is - some kind of world police force? Are you saying that you would send your troops into other countries and see thousands of them get wasted because you're proud of what you do for others? And the justification would be... - so that you can thump your chest harder than the last time?

Jeez, Jackal. You're scaring me. :eek:

Rolex - I'd be interested to read what you're about to write up for NUKE - will you post it here in this thread?

Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #101 on: January 31, 2005, 03:41:40 AM »
I would just like to point out that it was the UN who forbid Bush SR. from officially spanking Hussein and getting that rolling.
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Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #102 on: January 31, 2005, 04:10:45 AM »
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Originally posted by beet1e
Some jackal quotes:

quote:
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Otherwise tyrants such as these would just roll over the rest of the world.
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And what has America been doing in the last 50 years?


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tyr·an·ny  
A government in which a single ruler is vested with absolute power.

The office, authority, or jurisdiction of an absolute ruler.

Absolute power, especially when exercised unjustly or cruelly: “I have sworn... eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man” (Thomas Jefferson).
]

As The US was involved in a Cold War from ’45 to ’90, the absolute power required for tyranny was not so absolute.

The Soviets, the Chinese, had opposing forces in Europe, Asia, and the Americas, France was also involved in SE Asia, NATO and the UN were formed to share responsibility and power.

Truman even offered to put the US Nuclear arsenal under the UN. At the first meeting of the Atomic Energy Commission the U.S. delegate proposed a plan to internationalize control of atomic energy. The plan was rejected by the Soviet Union, which tested its first nuclear weapons in 1949, ending the U.S. monopoly.
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Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #103 on: January 31, 2005, 04:16:24 AM »
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Originally posted by beet1e
Mornin', Jackal.

I haven't seen anything here to make be change my mind when I said it's not good enough to go to war on a false prospectus


 Mornin` Beet.

  Well don`t look now, but you are a tad late on this one. :D
  I`m not trying to change your mind. :D

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Now there's talk of doing Iran, maybe doing Syria - where's it going to end?


  It probably will not end until we get the problems taken care of that has been left unchecked and untethered for way too may years.

 

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John Simpson spoke of many problems in the region, but the one he mentioned more than once was that it's difficult if not impossible to find Iraqi civilians who accept that their lot is better now than it was under Saddam.


  :D ROFL Geez Beet , that wasn`t even a good troll. Simpson is the BBC`s world affairs editor for Christ`s sake. Sold to the highest bidder.
  You going to grab some Jiffy Pop and go over to Boroda`s for a night of viewing propaganda films when you are done here? :D

 
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Proud of what you do for others? What do you think your country is - some kind of world police force?



  Simply put...without a doubt. Yes. Absolutely.
  Someone has to take care of the problems that are arising in the world and we seem to be the only one capable of the task.
  I bet there is nothing worse than living in a country that so envys the U.S. on one hand , but so depends on it on the other for things that they are not either willing or capable of having the intestinal fortitude to handle, huh?

 
 
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Jeez, Jackal. You're scaring me.

  Yea, I know. The truth is some frighteneing stuff. :D

  Beet I`m beginning to worry about you. Your trolls are getting sluggish and more than a little half assed.
  I think maybe the lack of freedom is getting to you.
  Why don`t ya just come on over before you lose the right to do so.
  I bet Laz would reserve lane 3 down at the range for you. :D
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline beet1e

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« Reply #104 on: January 31, 2005, 04:45:44 AM »
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Originally posted by Jackal1
ROFL Geez Beet , that wasn`t even a good troll. Simpson is the BBC`s world affairs editor for Christ`s sake. Sold to the highest bidder.
No trolls. Simpson has been a BBC war correspondent in Iraq for about 25 years. So I think maybe - just maybe - he knows a little more about it than you or me.

As to whether the American public will put up with thousands of servicemen's lives being lost in a campaign that goes for country after country - I wouldn't push it. I think there are limits. It's not as if your injured troops get star treatment when they get home. No, they are abandoned to voluntary donations through PayPal. How much of that are they going to take before someone asks what's it all for...

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Someone has to take care of the problems that are arising in the world and we seem to be the only one capable of the task.
I bet there is nothing worse than living in a country that so envys the U.S. on one hand , but so depends on it on the other for things that they are not either willing or capable of having the intestinal fortitude to handle, huh?
Um... it may have escaped your notice, but we're in that war too - the second largest coalition force.

Lack of freedom? LOL - let's see, Holland next month, France in March, 2 weeks in Italy in the summer, invitations to the US and Ecuador pending...

Let me know the location of your one horse town, and I might buy you a drink at the saloon on my way through. If not, I'll just buy the town. :D