Author Topic: Lost Art of Combat  (Read 3004 times)

Offline FT_Animal

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Lost Art of Combat
« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2005, 12:09:56 AM »
With ya 110%

~A

Offline moose

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« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2005, 12:12:04 AM »
yeah, the old days were definitely more personal.. intersquad rivalries between the assassins and 13th were always a blast and it was fun cleaning up entire sectors with just  6 or 7 guys in 190s. used to be able to cap fields easily like that, too.

now you need 20-30 to be successful.. shrug. what i hope is that once ToD comes out it will split up the #s and we can go back to having good old small MA furballing and then have a seperate strat server. i'd probably do both myself.
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Offline NoBaddy

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« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2005, 12:17:46 AM »
Hmm, seems to be some selective memory loss in this thread. AW had a "ho option"...planes with centerline guns received a bonus chance to hit on head on shots (and they used it).  There were also divebombing buffs in AW...and B17s that would stall turn at 1k and fighters that could stall, turn 180 and then climb after an opponent.

Neither game can lay a claim to perfection...accept in memory. :)
NoBaddy (NB)

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Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #33 on: February 07, 2005, 02:01:02 AM »
Bottom line is it's still up to me how I present myself in the arena.  I can choose to HO, or not.

I can choose to talk to folks, tell someone nice shot, ask if a guy needs help before diving in on his fight etc.

You lead by example, not by expecting the other guy to act the way you want em to first.  And you hope that if enough folks do those things, the message will get across.

And it's still just a game that for me lets me believe if only for a brief time now and then that I might have been a fighter pilot in another life somewhere.

This is right before I get shot down of course or after I'm back at base with another roll of duct tape patching up my 38G.

Great fun either way as long as I don't forget how I expect myself to act.

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Offline beet1e

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« Reply #34 on: February 07, 2005, 05:08:29 AM »
Zanth! I enjoy your posts! I had the best laugh I've ever had on this BBS when you said "...unless the LA7 pilot is a complete idiot. Granted, there's a 50/50 chance of that" :lol

My last complete tour (T49) ended about a year ago, and I lost interest in what the game had become. Many of the reasons for that are the very things being discussed in this thread. ^

SLO has a thread going, asking why he should come back. Well, there's new planes, new graphic effects with smoke/fire - but (and someone beat me to it by saying this) if that was what floated my boat, I could enjoy all that offline, and not have to pay $14.95/month. Going the graphic effects route is like rating a movie according to how many crashes/fires/explosion there are. (Watched ConAir last night - was embarrassed to have stayed up for it)

As to the community...
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
... thinking the new guys were like us... they aren't... They have no interest in getting good at air combat.   They are extremely frieghtened of being beaten.... even tho they must know that the only way that they will get good is to fight and die...  Instead... they tell themselves that they are working towards a "goal" and "teamwork"  evewn tho even the lamest amoung them must know that the goals are silly and pointless compared to actually beating another human in virtual combat.

But... we need these losers... we need em to pay HT and co. and allow him to stay in bussiness.   Sure, they are pale, spineless untalented, mouse weilding building battlers that most often ruin the game but... I guess we need em.   Otherwise they would be spending theri money at some star trek convention or role playing game.   Fortunately most don't read this BB so they don't know how laughable and pitifull we think they are.
...someone once said (I think it was SOB) that Lazs and I are flip sides of the same coin. With regard to the game, what Lazs wants and what I want are diametrically opposed, and yet... I sort of agree with SOME of what he's saying here. Or at least I feel the same way about the people he's talking about, but for  different reasons. I certainly agree with Lazs that the people he's talking about have no interest in air combat. That much is obvious from the way they will only fly from a 5 plane subset of the 70+ planes provided, and will whine - even threaten to cancel accounts - if those 3, 4 or 5 planes are unavailable.

But I don't agree that the goals of base capture are "silly and pointless". ACM is clearly going to be a key skill in a game like AH (or at least it used to be) but  in isolation would not hold my interest. Imagine a game like Cricket or Baseball - or even football (by which I mean football, played with a round ball) - in any game like that, there are skills/techniques - but there is also a scoreboard. When a side is down, they have to fight like tigers to avoid losing the game. It's the score - the objective - that's driving them to win. Without that objective, those games would look the way they do when a side has the game in the bag, and is merely running the clock down - triangular passing in football, stone walling in cricket etc. Sure, the participants are using their skills - but it's boring.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2005, 08:03:15 AM »
ah...  So the brits have a history of making games boring with strat?

"those games would look the way they do when a side has the game in the bag, and is merely running the clock down - triangular passing in football, stone walling in cricket etc. Sure, the participants are using their skills - but it's boring."

That is what is happening now...  it is "smart" to horde... it is the way to "win".... if the reseting of the fields is the idea behind "winning"

But what does it matter?  The guys who are the worst offenders aren't interested enough in the community to read this board anyway.   They have no idea how little we think of them.

I just never realized how timid and worried about "image" people were... even under a "handle".   When we paid a couple bucks an hour to play we sure as hell didn't have the money to kid ourselves that we were having fun hiding from every good furball.

lazs
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Offline Wotan

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« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2005, 09:14:38 AM »
Quote
. AH is HO heaven.


It takes a milli second to recognize a ho and another milli second to turn someone ho'ness to a 6 shot.

If you ***** head on shots then I submit you are one of the reasons fighting has gone downhill. You simply don't how to respond.

You get more ACM using someone ho'ness then you do with some head on 'shield'.

'All they do is HO'--- Sweat Jesious get some time in the DA.

CBC Archive Buzz Beurling radio interview 1948 --- he's a HO....

Quote

Soviet Pilot Ivan Ivanovich Kozhemyako:

Q: Did the Germans sometimes attack you instead of the Il’s? What did you do then?

A: Yes, sometimes they did. I countered this the same way I would counter an attack on the Il’s – a head-on counter-attack and then a turn onto the bandits tail in the blind spot below and behind him so that he loses sight of me. If he [slows down/turns] even a little I’ll hit him.


Quote


Francis "Gabby" Gabreski on Discovery Wings Legends of Airpower

  You're not out there to glamorize the destruction of fighter aircraft, you are there on a specific mission to keep those bombers from being shot down. In other words if you could scare away - which we have on many occasions - where the Fw 190s and 109's would break off because we'd start coming in head on to them with our guns wide open and so forth firing on them so they'd turn over and go down to the deck. We wouldn't follow them, naturally, because we did our job.


I can post much more, from PAC to WETO to Eastern Fornt. Pilots went head on in real life. There are tried and true tactics to use a head on to your advantage.

Whining about all them 'head on attacks' just proves the point about how low the skill level in this game is.

Offline TexMurphy

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« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2005, 09:41:39 AM »
Ive said it over and over.

Any change to a communities behaivor is due to the VETERAN PLAYERS short commings in MENTORING OF NEW PLAYERs.

New players arnt "lame by nature" they just dont know the "code of the game". They get a game which is very open ended and try to learn to survive battles and get a kill now and then.

The skill of the vets is very high and the skill of the new players is very low. So inorder to survive they have to do anything they can come up with. To get a kill they do anything they can come up with.

As a new player you are very open to help from vets because you want to learn. If you dont get any you learn on your own and do what ever it takes to close the gap to the veteran players.

If the noobs arnt mentored they will do things that vets consider lame. Why? BECAUSE NO ONE TOLD EM ANYTHING NO ONE SHOWED EM HOW ITS SUPPOSED TO BE DONE.

Its amazing to see how many vets whine about lame here lame there and yet do nothing to educate and mentor new players.

Ofcourse there are exceptions to this. Our squad 369th Synergy Corps has gotten alot of help from Flyboy who has been great in helping us. There are great and very helpfull vets but Im sorry to say that most vets only care about them selfs and their own squad.

So many times have players in our squad asked over country and range chat "Where do you need our eggs?", "What needs to be hit", "Who needs help" and not gotten any answer what so ever.

Are you suppriced that Fighter Hangers get porked by noob bomber pilots when the vets cant even tell em where to put the ges WHEN THEY ASK?

Are you really suppriced that noobs dont give six calls when they see vets who just line up on planes on their six to get the kill without telling em its there?

Its like raising kids. If you dont lead by example your kid is gonna do exactly what you do. If you dont tell the kid what is right and what is wrong the chance is great the kid will do wrong. If you dont explain why things should be done in a certain way the kid wount do it. If you scream at a kid he will do anything to dispite you.

So its really up to the Vets to change the situation not to the new players.

Tex.

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #38 on: February 07, 2005, 10:52:02 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
I foolishly believed that the more the merrier... I based this erorronious thinking on the fact that when there were few of us we had great fights and more like us would mean more good fights.
Erorronious? Did you mean errogenous, or have you had an email from blitz-? ;)  As to your comment - well, I tried to tell you, but you wouldn't have it!

Wotan quoted Gabreski thus:
Quote
You're not out there to glamorize the destruction of fighter aircraft, you are there on a specific mission ...
What's that word the yanks use, when they agree with someone 110%? I think the word sounds like Jackal's house... ;) Seriously, those words from Gabreski are exactly how I feel about flightsimdom. YMMV, and probably does.  I very much liked Gabreski, when I met him in 2000.

Wotan - happy birthday for Thursday, in  case I forget...

Offline humble

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« Reply #39 on: February 07, 2005, 11:02:38 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by oboe
When I read posts like this, where guys talk about how great the fights and community attitude were back in the good ol' days - I wish more people knew about how great the Combat Theater is on a good night.    It's been dead lately, but I swear, get 30-50 people (and make sure Oldman is one of them) in there with well- matched planeset it is everything you guys describe that you miss about the old days.

There was another post recently about squad challenges in the dueling arena.    Squad ops are fun in the CT too - in fact with the low icon settings sometimes it really pays to have squadmates calling out the bogeys.    Anyway maybe the CT would be a good place for squad challenges, and that might help with getting a 'seed' population in there on a given night.  'course it woudl be a problem if both squads have a 'chosen' ride that is not available in the CT that week.


Actually I think the CT is far far worse than the MA ever has been. Plenty of newer sticks (good ones) have ventured into the CT to get gangbanged by the little cliques. Now, 18 months ago the CT was the place to be...but as some of the "squads" migrated to the CT from the MA they brought their garbage with them.

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Offline SCDR

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« Reply #40 on: February 07, 2005, 11:11:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by NoBaddy
Hmm, seems to be some selective memory loss in this thread. AW had a "ho option"...planes with centerline guns received a bonus chance to hit on head on shots (and they used it).  There were also divebombing buffs in AW...and B17s that would stall turn at 1k and fighters that could stall, turn 180 and then climb after an opponent.

Neither game can lay a claim to perfection...accept in memory. :)

:D Not claiming to have perfect memory. In AW there was no HO
option. If you hit someone from the front it was from an angle.
Moggy said it was to keep the dweebs from ruining the fun most
people wanted to have. Collisions were off also. I used to start
a fight that way, when it was 1 v 1. Both fly thru each other than
"Fight On!" and worked to get the best angle you could.

I didn't do much buffing in AW, so I don't know. Most of the
bombing I did was with a hvy fighter and usually with the Sq.
NB you got to agree, the current way AH allows buffs to DB is
ridiculous.

SCDR

Offline SCDR

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« Reply #41 on: February 07, 2005, 11:22:03 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wotan
It takes a milli second to recognize a ho and another milli second to turn someone ho'ness to a 6 shot.

If you ***** head on shots then I submit you are one of the reasons fighting has gone downhill. You simply don't how to respond.

You get more ACM using someone ho'ness then you do with some head on 'shield'.

'All they do is HO'--- Sweat Jesious get some time in the DA.

Maybe my ACM sux in AH, maybe not. IF I vis a plane coming in
with guns blazing I WILL return fire, if I have a shot. You think
I'm going to just let them get a free kill?

I have never gone to DA. No interest in it. Maybe you ment TA.
 
SCDR

Offline Wotan

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« Reply #42 on: February 07, 2005, 11:51:11 AM »
If you chose to joust then don't ***** about head ons.

If you can't see a way to use a head on to your advantage then yes you need some help.
 
There's been numerous threads on how to work a head on to your advantage. Lephturn (original AH trainer) had a web page article entitled 'How to avoid the Head on' or something like that.

I meant the DA because the TA is full newbs and you wont learn anything that way.

Find you a seasoned pro and have whup your arse a few times until learn something. They will even show you how to not get suckered into that head on folks complain about so much.

As I said you will see more ACM by those folks who know how to re-act to a head on then you will from those hiding behind a head on shield.

Instead of taking the high risk shot dive below and slightly off to one side of the attacker. From there your options are wide open.

Offline Wotan

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« Reply #43 on: February 07, 2005, 11:52:42 AM »
Quote
Wotan - happy birthday for Thursday, in case I forget...


Thanks bud...

Offline Vad

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« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2005, 11:57:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
  Fortunately most don't read this BB so they don't know how laughable and pitifull we think they are.

lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's


You are wrong, they do. I read, for example.

And this is one of the main reason why I fly La-7 almost exclusively, never asked for help and don't want to enter any squad.