P38

[lasersailor184]

No OIO, you would not gain anything by getting rid of Auto retract.

You gain nothing by getting rid of Auto retract.


That's the simple fact.

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
No OIO, you would not gain anything by getting rid of Auto retract.

You gain nothing by getting rid of Auto retract.


That's the simple fact.

He doesnt want to get rid of autoretract, he wants the autoretract speeds to be 100mph over the flap deploy speeds. Yes, his request is that outrageus.

[OIO]

karnak any 38 turning with a spit or zero is an idiot. Im talking about turnfighting with 109's, 190's, soviet fighters, P-51 and P47. Planes which the 38 should have no problem whatsoever out-turning at speeds below 250-200 mph with flaps out.  

See a pattern in those planes? They are the planes the P-38 is at a disadvantage energy fighting so you force them into a turnfight at low speeds. And its in those fights that the damn flaps pull up on their own, spin you out and make you lose..a feature which does NOT affect any other plane in the set as severely as the 38.


Murdr: I think that system could be adopted as well, but with a higher treshold. (and yeah i like yours better, im not a math person  )

15%=75% probability above deployment level is pretty much what we have now. youd be replacing retract with damage to flaps or jams in every fight.

id say start with 20% above deployment speed be around 15% probability and get progressively worse after that.. say 75% damage probability  at 40% above deployment speed(the P-38 had the manouvering flaps locks added in mid-late war models so that the pilots couldnt deploy past those speeds for safety reasons, as some 38s were coming back with wing damage.. but those pilots reported using the flaps at well over 300mph not just mere 30mph above the lock-deployment speed).

And i say 25% because its not a 1 time deal that the 38 will exceed the deployment speed for that 30mph.. heck thats the whole freaking problem with the autoretraction, its a speed mark that the 38 easily reaches and so fast in a below horizon turn ..and as ive said before the plane will slow down barely a second or 2 later to waay under the deployment speed as the turnfight continues above horizon.

I would say in a turnfight i make a good 20 or so 'turns' with a con (yes me being on its 6 and close to getting a shot)..up and down horizon. 20 chances of being hit by a 75% damage chance if i exceed the 30mph (about 15% over deployment speed) is waay too high.

hows :
 
over deployment speed %: speed OVER the 150 retract point: Prob of damage happening

20% : +30 mph : 15%
25% : +38 mph : 25%
30% : +45 mph : 35%
35% : +52 mph : 55%
40% : +60 mph : 75 %
50% : +75 mph : 100%

note the jump from 35% prob to 55% then to 75%. of damage and then the guaranteed damage point.

when in the turnfight its those 30 mph to 45mph that would remove the 'touch the retract point for the split second' problem while still having the pilot have a decent but low chance of damage each time it happens..and a rather high chance of it happening if the flaps are obviously being abused 35% above retract speed and higher.

[Karnak]

OIO,

That's funny, because the Spitfire has trouble out turning some of the fighters, earlier 109s, Yaks and La-5/7, you mention, yet you claim that the P-38 should easily out turn those, and not try turning with a Spitfire.


Come on, the P-51 and P-47 both gain from the same overmodeled flaps as the P-38, and like the P-38 they can out turn all of those aircraft. Even the Bf109s which all tested as turning better than the P-51 or P-47.


You need to realize that your fighter does not have to have a counter to whatever you run into.  Most of us don't expect that and I don't know why P-38 drivers think differently.  There are many fighters that will simply kill the Mossie unless they mess up, and the Ki-84 cannot disengage.  I accept these things when I lift off in those fighters.  If you need to always have a counter, fly an La-7 or an Fw190D-9.

[Wotan]

Who told you a P-38 should out turn a 109?

[OIO]

with full flaps out at or under 200mph? yes wotan.

ill grant the E and F4 models will out-turn the 38.. i was reffering to the G models.

Karnak:
"Yaks and La-5/7"

I apologize i was typing a bit too fast. The Yak and LA5 should not be in the 'no problem to out-turn' You're right about those 2. I usually win turnfights vs yak and La5 because it ends up on the deck at stall speeds where the yak and La5 are at a disadvantage vs 38.

But the La7? definetely out-turned under 200mph by a 38 with flaps out.

[Crumpp]

It is one of the best climbers.

As was discussed in the other threads, this can be an indication of accelleration but is not a definative charactersitic.


Let's see how far ahead the P38J was against the Zeke in comparision with other USAAF fighters:

P38:





The P47, which after 1 min was almost twice the distance away from the Zeke:



And the P51D:



Again much father ahead after 1 min and completely out of the P38's league by 2 mins.

Facts are the P 38 was dead last in accelleration.

Lets look at the set up of the P38J for the JFC:



And how it stacked up against it's contemprary USAAF fighters:




Facts are the men who might have to fly it in combat did not think much of the P38J after flying it when compared to other US Fighters and the enemy fighters they may have to face.

Facts are it had the highest wingloading, Highest Drag, and an unremarkable power loading.



You can get mad all you want Bug, but the facts speak for themselves.  

I would certainly not be screaming in the forums about it being undermodeled.

All the best!

Crumpp

[Karnak]

Originally posted by OIO
But the La7? definetely out-turned under 200mph by a 38 with flaps out.

Hmmm.  That's odd.  It is really nothing more than a cleaned up La-5FN.  Same engine, wings and everything.  IIRC they even reduced it's fuel capacity.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

I think HTC has undermodeled the stick used to beat dead horses.

By the way, the JFC is about as relevant and meaningful as your average congressional committee.

[2bighorn]

Originally posted by OIO
But the La7? definetely out-turned under 200mph by a 38 with flaps out.

How can big and heavy bird turn with something like la-7? No matter how you look at it (wing loading, size, weight, power to weight ratio...) La-7 should beat p-38 into dust, in real life as in AH at speeds around 200mph. If not, well, that would defy any logic.

[OIO]

2big: a b26 and ju88 will out-turn the la7. them be much bigger and heavier than a 38. the fowlers increase wing area a lot.

crummp: those test start at 200mph. the 38 is a mediocre accelerator past that. try 50 to 200mph (speed of a turningfight) and see how well the 38 does vs 51 and 47 in comparison.

i shouldve worded it as best low speed accel but the whole post was about turning and low speed stuff

[Murdr]

Just an aside. In an unfortunate friendly fire incident on nov 7,1944.  After being unexpectedly bounced by yaks, loosing 2 P38s, the 82nd FG engaged resulting 4 confirmed and 1 possible kills aginst the soviets without a further loss of a P38.

just came to mind.

I guess I should add that the yaks were ordered to bounce the P38s who were unaware that the battle lines had moved since their prior sortie, and were straifing the Russian lines instead of the Germans, Killing Soviet Lt Gen Kotov in the process.

[OIO]

wow talk about a lousy day

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Crumpp
As was discussed in the other threads, this can be an indication of accelleration but is not a definative charactersitic.


Let's see how far ahead the P38J was against the Zeke in comparision with other USAAF fighters:



Crumpp

Hmmm...strange.  In Thomas McGuire's "Combat Tactics in the South West Pacific" he explicity mentions that if you find yourself in trouble against a Zero or a Zeke, that you just extend and let the superior acceleration of the P-38 get you beyond gun range and then enter into a shallow climb and regain the altitude advantage because the Zero/Zeke will not be able to match.


ack-ack

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Hmmm...strange.  In Thomas McGuire's "Combat Tactics in the South West Pacific" he explicity mentions that if you find yourself in trouble against a Zero or a Zeke, that you just extend and let the superior acceleration of the P-38 get you beyond gun range and then enter into a shallow climb and regain the altitude advantage because the Zero/Zeke will not be able to match.


ack-ack

Hmmm. That wouldnt work very well if one test I remember of level accel only gave the US planes a few hundred feet of space from a zeke after somethin g like 30 seconds from 250 or 300 mph...

Plus the zero accels quite well with its high power to weight.

Maybe he was talking about dives?