P38

[hitech]

Murdr: So your saying snapping the flaps off at the bottom of the loop does not take the control out of the pilots hands?

Or do you just wish the limit's raised so you can use flaps at higher speeds at the bottom of the loop?


HiTech

[MANDO]

Actually some people use landing gear down as last resource airbrake to force overshoots or to do not overshoot. When speed raises landing gear raises automatically? No, it breaks.

Why the same rule is not present for the flaps? Or, why the same rule is not present for the landing gear?

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by MANDO
Why the same rule is not present for the flaps? Or, why the same rule is not present for the landing gear?

The only people I see doing that fly F4Us, and those actually used the gear as a form of airbraking.  Occasionally I'll see someone hilariously try to drop the gear to bleed even more speed while slow, but I have never seen a situation where this helped rather than hurt them.

You make a good point though, Mandoble.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Kweassa]

So implementing something that didnt exist is more realistic?

 
 Yup.

 Why do you think our planes have no direct prop pitch control, and all use a generic constant-speed prop/RPM control? Or, why do you think combat trim was implemented? Just to help newbies out?


 

I do think you answered AKAKs question though of"what is everyone afraid of?"

 Nobody's afraid of anything. Even with autoretract most P-38 experts can still manage their flaps in a good manner.

 The problem is overall attitude and outcome, concerning realism in controlling stuff.

 You are supposed to be worried about using certain devices when it is not recommended. The autoretract makes sure of that, so people try to avoid situations that would also not be likely in real life(either that, or push it too far and stall out. Whichever way.).

[killnu]

Or, why do you think combat trim was implemented? Just to help newbies out?

yes, because i can check or uncheck the box.


as far as the "afraid of" thing and your last 2 page post, you talked about "flapfest" and people flying the plane in a way that wasnt realistic yet "technically feasible".  thats what i was getting at.   seemed a lot of that post was directed towards the fact the plane could "technically" fly like that, but nobody pushed it, and flew it differently than could "technically" be possible.

maybe i misunderstood...

[Kweassa]

kweassa, I dont know why you insist on attributing inaccurate critiquing of 38 drivers tactics in these discussions.

 Take a wild guess.

 Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the P-38 drivers are the only guys who are asking for something which has been refused, again..  again..  again.. again.. and again.

It 's like you guys are the new generation RAMs of Aces High 2.

We all know that the 38s strength is working in the verticle. Verticle cant last forever, so that leads to a loop fight. A loop fights max speed is reached at the bottom apex of the loop. Often the magic auto-retract speed is where? Very near the bottom apex of the loop. Hence it becomes an issue when the controls are taken out of the pilots hands less than a second or two before the plane will lose speed anyways.

 We all understand you NEED the flap at that moment. Unfortunately, you can't HAVE it at that moment because the speed is over that which has been sanctioned.

 Try to understand that the "NEED" bucket does not have any connections with the "HAVE" bucket.

[Kweassa]

yes, because i can check or uncheck the box.

 Nope.

 According to HT, the CT is the only way he can possibly implement a real plane system that requires a certain stick feel. However, it has certain limitations under certain circumstances, which is why you are allowed to override CT and go into manual.

 So actually, turning on CT all the time and flying it, is more realistc than having to manual trim everything everymoment.

as far as the "afraid of" thing and your last 2 page post, you talked about "flapfest" and people flying the plane in a way that wasnt realistic yet "technically feasible". thats what i was getting at. seemed a lot of that post was directed towards the fact the plane could "technically" fly like that, but nobody pushed it, and flew it differently than could "technically" be possible.

maybe i misunderstood...

 I understood the word 'afraid' as an ego thing. As in;

* Are you afraid that the P-38 will become a superplane if you allow full flap control?

* Naw, I ain't afraid of the superplane, I'm only afraid of the general attitude towards reckless and unrealistic combat

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Kweassa
Please excuse the long, two-part post, but I've tried to compile every bit of what we've discussed in the past, and every logic and reasoning behind why the auto-retract is here:
---------------------------------------------


 The 'remove autoretraction' crowd has to understand, that giving full realistic control can sometimes actually deterr realism instead of enhance it. This point has been countlessly observed and demonstrated in IL2/FB in a most classic manner.

The only reason why we have auto-retracting flaps is to make the game more accessible to the non-hard core flyer.  HiTech has already said as much in a previous thread.

As a person that has played both WB and AW, both games which allowed you full control over your flaps and experience the risks associated with it, your example of using IL2 is quite laughable at best.  But that's just your pattern of using selective "evidence" to fit your agenda.

Why are you so afraid of getting rid of the auto-retracting flaps Kweassa?  Afraid of a little too much 'realism' in your game?


ack-ack

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Karnak
That is not what HiTech said.  That is what you claim.  HiTech did not say it was an accessibility issue, he said it was a realistic combat issue.


I call BS on that it would be a more relistic. Namly because the consiquences are much different in how you would use the flaps then they would in real life. Basicly uping the limits from the specs would cause more unrealistic behavior while flying.

2nd your argument is still not against auto retracting flaps, but wrather that you want the limits raised.


HiTech

[/B][/QUOTE]


Ahhh...I see you have a case of the "selective post reading" syndrome.  If you look a couple of post down from that one you quoted, you'll see me call B.S. and then you'll see the post from HiTech where is says it boils down to a game accessability issue.  Keep on reading Karnak and try again, thanks for playing.


ack-ack

[Karnak]

Bah.

Edit again.


What is it that the P-38 drivers want that is not rooted in an intention to make their pet fighter even more potent?

I see the rabid P-38 fans in the same exact light as the rabid Luftwaffe fans such as Barbi and RAM.  They ignore, or discount the historical records and accounts and put on a large persecution act in order to look like martyrs.

1) The P-38 is not the only fighter to get bit bad by the flaps autoretracting instead of holding out above their rated speed.

2) The historical record of combat performance by the varied WWII fighters does not match up well with the available performance data.

3) The desire to have an airframe capability modeled so as to use it in an unrealistic manner mystifies me.

[BUG_EAF322]

DriverS  u ever seen me whine or complain request on the P38 ??

I like it the way it is.

[Kweassa]

The only reason why we have auto-retracting flaps is to make the game more accessible to the non-hard core flyer. HiTech has already said as much in a previous thread.

 It is as much a realism issue as basic balancing. Even if you what you claim is true, makes no difference in the fact the autoretraction serves its dual purpose by forcibly implying that the pilots abide by the sanctioned control limitations.

As a person that has played both WB and AW, both games which allowed you full control over your flaps and experience the risks associated with it, your example of using IL2 is quite laughable at best. But that's just your pattern of using selective "evidence" to fit your agenda.

 So your evidence of two dead games, is superior over my one evidence of the most influential WW2 aircombat game for the last few years?

 Ever consider the possibility that the way you were flying in AW or WB with the flaps out, would be totally unrealistic in the first place?

Why are you so afraid of getting rid of the auto-retracting flaps Kweassa? Afraid of a little too much 'realism' in your game?

 More like distortion of realism to one's personal tastes in the way you people want, Ack. Read the boring but informative two-part post again. Its all covered there.

 Basically, you guys want to step over the line, which no pther plane is allowed to cross. The recommendations and settings are all there in the flight manual. You guys want to operate your system outside of that recommendations and still get away with it scot-free.

 If that happens for one plane, what's there to stop other people from asking, let's say, the direct prop-pitch control installed in some of their planes, Instead of that generic constant-speed prop installations which makes sure all planes fly as they are limited too by actual datasets and figures. ?

 Every one of those planes could use it for a nifty purpose of getting 10 extra mph  more than the listed official speeds for their fightercraft.

 After all, it's technically possible. Allowing it is can only be more realism, right? Shortly after everybody's flying their plane at speeds higher than any of the records indicate.. and that's still more realistic, since it allowed full control to the pilot.


 Well, how about making a deal which everyone of us would be content with?

 Ask HT to model only the P-38 without autoretract. If the speed goes over, the flap will rip off.

 There. More accessibility to your plane.

  If accessibility is really what you want, that should make the P-38 drivers happy. You got the "more accessibility" you wanted. The free accessibility upto the point you can damage your flaps on purpose.

[Wotan]

The only reason why we have auto-retracting flaps is to make the game more accessible to the non-hard core flyer.

Hitting a button isn't anything 'hard core'. That is comical.

If flaps retract just hit the button again and quit whining...

The P-38 is nothing special, it doesn't require 'special treatment'. Just fly the plane how it is modeled.

Ya know this auto retract thing has been the same in AH for as long as I remember, it wasn't until the influx of AW that the cries of 'auto retract bias' in regards to the P-38 started filling the board. Just because you could flap flaps around over there doesn't mean we need it here.

Those of you who claim IL2 is a flap fest well in the original Il2 game that was true. In Il2 now flaps jam quite regularly if you over speed in anything above combat setting. In all honestly I'd rather have umm auto retract because I seem to constantly jam mine while in the 190s. A jam means rtb quick or die.

However, so what if they auto retract, break or jam. Either way the limit is the same. Forget about all the non-sense about a randomizer. Anything random in these games gets whined about the most.

That's why you can't have gun jams or random eng / component failures. It not worth the whines over all.

It seems to me after this amount of whining folks would just adapt and forget all about whining for change...

HT has been clear on this since these whines started...

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Karnak
Bah.

Edit again.


What is it that the P-38 drivers want that is not rooted in an intention to make their pet fighter even more potent?

I see the rabid P-38 fans in the same exact light as the rabid Luftwaffe fans such as Barbi and RAM.  They ignore, or discount the historical records and accounts and put on a large persecution act in order to look like martyrs.

1) The P-38 is not the only fighter to get bit bad by the flaps autoretracting instead of holding out above their rated speed.

2) The historical record of combat performance by the varied WWII fighters does not match up well with the available performance data.

3) The desire to have an airframe capability modeled so as to use it in an unrealistic manner mystifies me.

This is not about trying to make the P-38 even more potent than it already is.  All we would like to see is a realistic approach to how the damage is applied to flaps from over-speeding/stress.  How can this equate making the P-38 better than it already is?  All it is doing is adding a realistic feature to the game and replacing a non-realistic approach that exists now.  Why is that so hard for you guys to grasp?

ack-ack

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Kweassa


 Ever consider the possibility that the way you were flying in AW or WB with the flaps out, would be totally unrealistic in the first place?

Not at all since I ran the risk of having my flaps become damaged from over-speeding/stress and I'd retract them before it got to that point.  Sometimes I wasn't paying attention and allowed them to get jammed a few times and it cost me big time.  Lesson learned and probably had my flaps jam less than a half a dozen times in AW and never had them jam in WB.

ack-ack