Author Topic: Kyoto saves the world  (Read 1613 times)

Offline Zulu7

  • Parolee
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 483
Kyoto saves the world
« Reply #60 on: February 10, 2005, 01:53:09 AM »
True:(

Offline Holden McGroin

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8591
Kyoto saves the world
« Reply #61 on: February 10, 2005, 02:46:19 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sabre
Until some geologist looking for a government grant whips up a computer model that indicates all those geothermal planets are causing a (potentially) dramatic cooling of the Earth's core.


Or someone looks at the evidence that some geothermal plants emit CO2 and hydrogen sulfide at rates near or exceeding fossil plants.

A buddy I work with used to work at a geo plant 2 hrs east of Bakersfeild CA.  

They put out tons of CO2 / hr, 90% of the gaseous emission from the plant was CO2 the vast majority of the balance was hydrogen sulfide, which they treated to gather 10 tons of elemental sulfer each day.

They also needed charcoal scrubbers to take out mercury and arsenic out of the gas and that charcoal would then become a hazardous solid waste.
Holden McGroin LLC makes every effort to provide accurate and complete information. Since humor, irony, and keen insight may be foreign to some readers, no warranty, expressed or implied is offered. Re-writing this disclaimer cost me big bucks at the lawyer’s office!

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6128
Kyoto saves the world
« Reply #62 on: February 10, 2005, 03:04:03 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mighty1
Taxing the rich will not solve any problem.

You tax them more they take it back from their workers OR find another loop hole and WE end up paying for it. again


How dare you attempt to interject common sense into this. Moderate conservative jerk.:D
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Gh0stFT

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1736
Kyoto saves the world
« Reply #63 on: February 10, 2005, 06:35:39 AM »
in other words:

everyone capische now?;)
The statement below is true.
The statement above is false.

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
Kyoto saves the world
« Reply #64 on: February 10, 2005, 08:24:40 AM »
dead... I don't know what the japs are doing "right" but I do know what they are doing wrong.   At least so far as I am concerned... they live in tiny little appartments in extremely crowded cities and have to be packed into public transportation in a way that peta would be apopleptic about if it were cattle being treated thus...  they have to drive boring cars when they ever do get to drive and they live on a tiny little island.

Other than that... if their factories produce less pollution than ours with the same or less cost per product then maybe we should use some of their methods.   If they know a way to burn coal in a more environmentaly friendly way we should look at it.

lazs

Offline Sabre

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3112
      • Rich Owen
Kyoto saves the world
« Reply #65 on: February 10, 2005, 12:30:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gh0stFT
in other words:

everyone capische now?;)


You're missing a few arrows, though.  There should be one right next to 7 showing the percentage of the incoming solar energy reflected off out "smog shield" and into space, and another at 4 (also pointing out into space) showing the percentage of solar energy reflecting off the Earth but making it through the "smog shield."  Looks like a wash to me:D .  Seriously tho, what do we know for sure?

1) The average temperature over the last 30 years appears to be going up (although apparently 1998 was hotter than any of the six years since...does that mean it's peaked?).

2) Average temperatures are cyclical, there having been both very warm and very cold periods thoughout the planet's history.

3) George Lucas has lost the ability to make good movies.

That's it, and no. 3 is subjective in the minds of some poeple (not me, of course).  No one has been able to prove that the cause of the current warming trend is solely or even primarily due to human activity.  The science is weak, relying on statistics and often driven by political agendas.  Depending on the answer they desire, analysts of the data fail to look for other correlating factors, and often extrapolate the data backwards and forward using whatever curve gives them the answer they seek.  I'm all for clean air and water, but Kyoto was just too flawed, and crafted on flawed science.
Sabre
"The urge to save humanity almost always masks a desire to rule it."

Offline Zulu7

  • Parolee
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 483
Kyoto saves the world
« Reply #66 on: February 10, 2005, 01:00:32 PM »
The smog thing was artificialy keeping the temp down. As we clean up our output of particulates we reduce the masking effect of smog. scientists now believe that we are getting hotter than previously believed and at a more rapid rate. Its no good cleaning up smog and carrying on pumping out Co2.

Global Dimming
Horizon producer David Sington on why predictions about the Earth's climate will need to be re-examined.

Questions and answers about global dimming

Programme transcript

 
 
We are all seeing rather less of the Sun. Scientists looking at five decades of sunlight measurements have reached the disturbing conclusion that the amount of solar energy reaching the Earth's surface has been gradually falling. Paradoxically, the decline in sunlight may mean that global warming is a far greater threat to society than previously thought.

The effect was first spotted by Gerry Stanhill, an English scientist working in Israel. Comparing Israeli sunlight records from the 1950s with current ones, Stanhill was astonished to find a large fall in solar radiation. "There was a staggering 22% drop in the sunlight, and that really amazed me," he says.

Intrigued, he searched out records from all around the world, and found the same story almost everywhere he looked, with sunlight falling by 10% over the USA, nearly 30% in parts of the former Soviet Union, and even by 16% in parts of the British Isles. Although the effect varied greatly from place to place, overall the decline amounted to 1-2% globally per decade between the 1950s and the 1990s.

Gerry called the phenomenon global dimming, but his research, published in 2001, met with a sceptical response from other scientists. It was only recently, when his conclusions were confirmed by Australian scientists using a completely different method to estimate solar radiation, that climate scientists at last woke up to the reality of global dimming.

Dimming appears to be caused by air pollution. Burning coal, oil and wood, whether in cars, power stations or cooking fires, produces not only invisible carbon dioxide (the principal greenhouse gas responsible for global warming) but also tiny airborne particles of soot, ash, sulphur compounds and other pollutants.

This visible air pollution reflects sunlight back into space, preventing it reaching the surface. But the pollution also changes the optical properties of clouds. Because the particles seed the formation of water droplets, polluted clouds contain a larger number of droplets than unpolluted clouds. Recent research shows that this makes them more reflective than they would otherwise be, again reflecting the Sun's rays back into space.

Scientists are now worried that dimming, by shielding the oceans from the full power of the Sun, may be disrupting the pattern of the world's rainfall. There are suggestions that dimming was behind the droughts in sub-Saharan Africa which claimed hundreds of thousands of lives in the 1970s and 1980s. There are disturbing hints the same thing may be happening today in Asia, home to half the world's population. "My main concern is global dimming is also having a detrimental impact on the Asian monsoon," says Prof Veerhabhadran Ramanathan, one of the world's leading climate scientists. "We are talking about billions of people."

But perhaps the most alarming aspect of global dimming is that it may have led scientists to underestimate the true power of the greenhouse effect. They know how much extra energy is being trapped in the Earth's atmosphere by the extra carbon dioxide (CO2) we have placed there. What has been surprising is that this extra energy has so far resulted in a temperature rise of just 0.6°C.

This has led many scientists to conclude that the present-day climate is less sensitive to the effects of carbon dioxide than it was, say, during the ice age, when a similar rise in CO2 led to a temperature rise of 6°C. But it now appears the warming from greenhouse gases has been offset by a strong cooling effect from dimming - in effect two of our pollutants have been cancelling each other out. This means that the climate may in fact be more sensitive to the greenhouse effect than thought.

If so, then this is bad news, according to Dr Peter Cox, one of the world's leading climate modellers. As things stand, CO2 levels are projected to rise strongly over coming decades, whereas there are encouraging signs that particle pollution is at last being brought under control. "We're going to be in a situation, unless we act, where the cooling pollutant is dropping off while the warming pollutant is going up. That means we'll get reduced cooling and increased heating at the same time and that's a problem for us," says Cox.

Even the most pessimistic forecasts of global warming may now have to be drastically revised upwards. That means a temperature rise of 10°C by 2100 could be on the cards, giving the UK a climate like that of North Africa, and rendering many parts of the world uninhabitable. That is unless we act urgently to curb our emissions of greenhouse gases.

want to check go here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/dimming_prog_summary.shtml



 


"Don't Panic Mr Mainwering DON'T PANIC!!!!! "

Offline GRUNHERZ

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13413
Kyoto saves the world
« Reply #67 on: February 10, 2005, 01:10:48 PM »
I'm happy to hear that our doom has been postponed for another few decades yet again..

Phew!

Offline Zulu7

  • Parolee
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 483
Kyoto saves the world
« Reply #68 on: February 10, 2005, 01:28:06 PM »
poor sons and daughters though eh!

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
Kyoto saves the world
« Reply #69 on: February 10, 2005, 02:14:34 PM »
Oh... I imagine my son and daughter and grand daughter will get a new crop of scientists with even more theories...  I imagine they will get a reprieve too.   You on the other hand seem like the type who deserves to go into hand wringing mode.

lazs

Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4287
Kyoto saves the world
« Reply #70 on: February 10, 2005, 02:18:02 PM »
I'm still waiting for the acid rain that forces us to stay inside everytime there's a light drizzle.
-SW

Offline bustr

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12436
Kyoto saves the world
« Reply #71 on: February 10, 2005, 02:23:00 PM »
The India\Asia brown cloud has been forming for the last 30 years while the industrialised west\EU\Japan has been cutting its emissions and doing everything short of returning to the stone age to make the world wide association of tree huggers happy.

The cloud over south asia seems to be doing everything the computer models says a 3 kilometer deep blanket of smog should be doing to global warming and climate change. But funny thing is, in the countries that are creating the cloud, western tree huggers would be shot or imprisoned for the kinds of activites that get them in the news and a political voice in the west. The wests emissions are a fraction of this 30 year old 3 kilometer deep brown cloud over the poor and emerging east. The west\America is not the source of global warming. Thats too easy and a cheap way to hide personal bias against the United States.

Pollution Cloud Over South Asia Threatens Economies

National Geographic News

August 12, 2002
This story aired on our U.S. cable television program National Geographic Today

A vast blanket of pollution stretching across South Asia is damaging agriculture, modifying rainfall patterns, and putting hundreds of thousands of people at risk, a new study suggests.


The findings, by scientists working with the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP), indicate that the spectacular economic growth seen in this part of the world in the past decade may soon falter as a result of the "Asian Brown Haze."

Vital follow-up studies are needed to unravel the precise role this three-kilometer-deep pollution blanket may be having on the region's climate and the world's.

The preliminary results indicate that the buildup of the haze, a mass of ash, acids, aerosols and other particles, is disrupting weather systems including rainfall and wind patterns and triggering droughts in western Asia.

The concern is that the regional and global impacts of the haze are set to intensify over the next 30 years as the population of the Asian region rises to an estimated five billion people.

"The haze is the result of forest fires, the burning of agricultural wastes, dramatic increases in the burning of fossil fuels in vehicles, industries, and power stations, and emissions from millions of inefficient cookers burning wood, cow dung, and other 'bio fuels,'" said Klaus Toepfer, Executive Director of UNEP.

"More research is needed, but these initial findings clearly indicate that this growing cocktail of soot, particles, aerosols, and other pollutants are becoming a major environmental hazard for Asia. There are also global implications, not least because a pollution parcel like this, which stretches three kilometers high, can travel halfway round the globe in a week," said Toepfer.

Toepfer said that the discovery of the haze highlights the need to figure out "how to achieve economic growth without sacrificing the long-term health and natural wealth of the planet. We have the initial findings, and the technological and financial resources available, let's now develop the science and find the political and moral will to achieve this for the sake of Asia, for the sake of the world."

The findings on the Asian Brown Cloud have come from observations gathered by 200 scientists working on the Indian Ocean Experiment (INDOEX), supplemented by new satellite readings and computer modelling.

Changing Climate

The blanket of pollution is reducing the amount of solar energy hitting the Earth's surface by as much as 10 to 15 percent. Meanwhile, its heat-absorbing properties are estimated to be warming the lower parts of the atmosphere considerably.

This combination of surface cooling and lower atmosphere heating appears to be altering the winter monsoon, leading to a sharp fall in rainfall over northwestern parts of Asia and an increase of rainfall along the eastern coast of Asia. However, the regional details of the predicted changes need to be verified with more comprehensive regional models and regional aerosol and climate observations.

The global models used in the report suggest that the haze may reduce precipitation over northwest India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, western China, and the neighboring western Central Asian region by between 20 and 40 percent.

"There have been two consecutive droughts in 1999 and 2000 in Pakistan and the northwestern parts of India while increased flooding in the high rainfall areas of Bangladesh, Nepal and the northeastern states of India," the report said.

The aerosols and particles in the haze are also affecting rainfall in other ways. Raindrops are becoming smaller and more numerous, triggering less frequent rainfall and longer-lived clouds. One potential consequence is to move precipitation away from populated regions.

A 10 percent reduction in the levels of solar energy hitting the region's oceans in turn reduces the evaporation of the moisture which controls summer rainfall.

Impacts on People

The reduction in sunlight may be having significant impacts on agriculture, the UNEP report said. Research carried out in India indicates that the haze may be reducing the winter rice harvests by as much as 10 percent.

Acids in the haze may, by falling as acid rain, have the potential to damage crops and trees. Ash falling on leaves can aggravate the impacts of reduced sunlight on the Earth's surface.

The pollution that is forming the haze could be leading to "several hundreds of thousands" of premature deaths as a result of higher levels of respiratory diseases, the report suggested.

Studies indicate that the level of fatalities is rising along with the levels of pollution.

Results from seven cities in India alone, including Ahmedabad, Kolkata, Delhi and Mumbai, estimate that some kinds of air pollution were annually responsible for 24,000 fatalities in the early 1990s. By the mid-1990s they resulted in an estimated 37,000 premature fatalities.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline Zulu7

  • Parolee
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 483
Kyoto saves the world
« Reply #72 on: February 10, 2005, 06:31:42 PM »
If you don't think theres even a hint of a problem then you got your head in a bucket!

Offline bustr

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12436
Kyoto saves the world
« Reply #73 on: February 10, 2005, 07:08:16 PM »
I never said there wasn't a problem. Most of the finger pointing and redistribution of wealth as a solution to the problem is not addressing the problem. The United States is not the problem. The 3 kilometer deep pollution cloud from over a billion people who do not live on the North American continent is. The Kyoto protocol gives them a pass while trying to point the finger at the industrialized west who have been reducing pollution annually every decade for the last 30 years while the countries exempt who are creating the cloud and related pollution don't have to address it. You give their governments monitary incentives and money to address it and they will pocket it like they have been doing since the end of WW2. Most of their populations burn something to cook food and heat water while their 1% at the top controls where foreign money goes. Them selves. They don't have our altruistic incentives to change the status quo or save the planet. Let alone their own people. To them much of their populations are excess.

At their current rate of out put, the west could reduce ours by 50% of pre 1990 and the problem would contiue to grow. Throwing money at the 3rd world will not and has never worked. The Kyoto protocol will attempt to establish a tax taken from the non-exempt members to.....lets see..UN and oil for food...worked real good didn't it. UN will pass the monies from the tax on to the 3rd world polluters to cut back or something???????? I dont see tree huggers performing anti brown cloud pollution demostrations in the 3rd world. The 3rd world won't tollerate it. So business as usual cry at the West and call them bad guys and polluters, our systems of government make it easier to extort money, sympathy, and hysteria for their causes. But in the end the cloud gets bigger and everyone says the United States is the bad guy and has pay bigger taxes and cut more emissions for the rest of the world.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline Zulu7

  • Parolee
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 483
Kyoto saves the world
« Reply #74 on: February 11, 2005, 12:10:14 PM »
Sorry Bustr wasn't refering to you was referring to all the " Oh don't worry about it because I want to drive my Gas Guzzling SuV, the US can do no wrong " guys. I agree the USA is not the only problem.

Kyoto is maybe not the answer either but in the minds of the public at least it shows acceptance of the issue and a willingness to attempt to cut emmissions. By not signing the USA is giving the wrong impression. It ought to be seen to be trying which right now, in the rest of the world it isn't. Outside of your shores people believe that the USA doesn't care about the issue that is the thing.

Whatever the solution we do have a problem.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2005, 12:15:20 PM by Zulu7 »