Who decides? THEY do!

[rshubert]

Originally posted by Zulu7

But I still would not have your gun laws for love nor money. I quite like not having to worry about getting blown away for saying the wrong thing or being in the wrong place.

Zulu, I own upwards of 25 long guns, and about 15 pistols of various kinds.  I am licensed to carry concealed weapons, and am a supporter of gun rights here in the USA.

I don't want our gun laws, either, but probably not in the same way you don't want them     One theme I do note in your discussion of this issue is bothering me, though.

You seem to think that "being in the wrong place or saying the wrong thing" is the cause of the majority of gun crime here.  Well, it isn't SMART to be in the wrong place, or to say the wrong thing.  Think about it.  If you have half a brain, you know where the dangerous places in your environment are.  Do bad people hang around there with weapons?

Don't go there.

If you get into a confrontation with someone, and they seem to be losing control of their anger, and you think they might want to fight,

Don't go there.

Use some sense, man.  Live your life with some awareness of your surroundings and respect for others, and you will never be in a situation where you might get shot.

[Maverick]

Originally posted by Zulu7
you might be said to be a "Britophobe"

you are just an argumentative B**tard? ( probably more likely

you resort to personal abuse and attack. Try a new tactic. My nose is getting painfull as you keeep getting up it all the time!

personal abuse and attack

I looked all over the page here and see that you resort to the same tactic rather easily. Hello kettle

[Zulu7]

No no Thats not abuse. I rather respect the argumentative b**tards in here. No problem with that. As for "Britophobe its just my counter to the too numerous to count, times I've heard the daft term "Amerihater" Its all just a bit of fun no offense intended. OK?

I have a slight problem with Masher and his "go shove it ........ Your a chode" stuff. Thats not argument discussion or debate thats just pure insult rubbish.

For the record I consider myself a bit of an argumentative B**tard so I guess I'm abusing myself in your book!



Please quote me correctly I was refering to Masher in the second bit of that post! You missed those words out.

[Zulu7]

rshubert.

Actualy I agree. And generaly I do use sense. I work with young people in some tough estates so its kind of necessary. But not everyone has the same level of perception and sense, and we all put our foot in it sometimes. I was simply trying to express that I feel safer in a relatively gun free society than I would in an armed one. Personaly I think that america is mad to continue with its current policy. But remember that is my opinion. Doesn't mean its true its just what I think.

( Blimey how many times have I had to say that )

[Maverick]

Originally posted by Zulu7
No no Thats not abuse. I rather respect the argumentative b**tards in here. No problem with that. As for "Britophobe its just my counter to the too numerous to count, times I've heard the daft term "Amerihater" Its all just a bit of fun no offense intended. OK?

I have a slight problem with Masher and his "go shove it ........ Your a chode" stuff. Thats not argument discussion or debate thats just pure insult rubbish.

For the record I consider myself a bit of an argumentative B**tard so I guess I'm abusing myself in your book!



Please quote me correctly I was refering to Masher in the second bit of that post! You missed those words out.

I know it was directed at Masher. That does not change the fact that you resort to the same tactics. Are you saying that it's OK to belittle Mashur but not others and that you should somehow be exempt from being called on the same situation?

I believe you used the term hypocrites in another post in this thread. Does that not apply to this same situation?

[Elfie]

NO ONE HAS ANY BUSSINESS IN MY HOME WITHOUT A COURT ORDER OR MY INVITATION/PERMISSION!

What happens when a court order (search warrant) is served, then when they dont find what they are looking for they refuse to leave?

The DEA showed up at my house several years ago at 1:00 am. They had a warrant to search my house for a particular woman. I was shown a picture of the woman in question and, having never seen her before OFFERED to walk the DEA agents through my home so they could see she was not here. When they saw wedding pictures on the wall they asked if the woman in the pictures was my wife. (kind of a retarded question if ya ask me )

After giving the agents a guided tour of my home I was subjected to questioning. When I told them I wanted an attorney present if I was going to be questioned I was informed I didnt need one and *better not pick up the phone*. After 90+ minutes of these jerks being in my home I threatened to call the local police, local sheriff, FBI and the TV news if they didnt leave immediately. At this point one of the agents threatened me with physical violence. The same agent also threatened to *visit my wife while I was at work and show her what a real man can do*. The way I interpreted his words, tone and body language was a threat to rape my wife.

When the agents finally left my home, they left with threats that they would be back and would make me very sorry for not having cooperated with them. The entire time the agents were in my home there were more agents outside with M-16's and shotguns.


I have absolutely no problem with the DEA showing up with a search warrant. I glady gave them a guided tour of our home. Once they determined that the person they were looking for wasnt in my home, they should have left IMMEDIATELY with an apology for disturbing me and thanking me for my cooperation. Instead what I got was an interrogation (w/o an attorney present and a veiled threat to NOT call one) and threats of physical violence against me and my family.

Thankfully, I have yet to see those DEA agents again. Otoh no citizen should have to put up with that kind of garbage from ANY gov't agency. It is my sincere belief that if there were no guns in private ownership in America that visits like this would be far more common and far more violent. An armed citizenry tends to keep the gov't and their agents in check. It didnt work this time. Well.....on second thought, since I never saw them again and the one who threatened my wife never showed up....they just might have considered the firearms hanging on the wall as a deterrent....

[Zulu7]

Maverik go back and read the post carefully with a sense of humour?

I don't believe I have used any insulting language towards Masher. certainly not of the kind he seems prone to spouting.

The first part of the post was aimed at Lazs and is from me a grudging respect for his willingness to debate.

The second part is a condemnation of Masher who simply responds to me by using insulting language with no humour.

Does that spell it clearly enough for you now?

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by wrag
Sadly I've come to the conclusion that Vulcan is wasting everyones time.

Post are not being read for content so much as ammunition for arguing.

I therefore from this point forward see no purpose in replying to Vulcan.  As any reply will not be read but only examined for USE?!

IMHO As someone has said already disingenuous.

Our cultures do not match.  I'm begining to think they never shall.

Oh well........

LOL, sometimes the truth hurts. Covering your ears and saying "I can't hear you" over and over won't help.

My whole point of the drunk driving scenario is that you - the gun nuts - believe you are above the law, and only respect the law when it suits you. IE drunk driving, which you all seem to agree with is a justified a proper law. However, when it comes to gun laws, you seem to think you should be beyond those laws, even those laws are brought into provide people with personal safety (much akin to the drunk driving laws), and are put to law by the same democratic bodys and processes that passed the drunk driving laws.

Your home is your castle? Not anymore. Laws do not stop at your property's boundaries. You do have rights, but you do not have the right to choose which laws suit you and which don't.

I'm not antigun, but you guys have really dropped my view of your attidues right down low. Your self serving knee-jerk-reaction arguments are so hypocritical its beyond belief.

At least the anti-gun crowd don't believe they are above the law.

[Maverick]

Zulu,

What is abundantly clear is your double standard in regards to the use of a "personal attack". The observation still stands. f this is your idea of humor, it's lacking a bit. Feel free to have the final word if you must.

Elfie,

 If this was a recent event you need to contact your local Police Dept / Sherrif Dept. and file a complaint. You also need to contact the DEA, with an attorney and have an internal investigation started regarding what you described. The actions you posted are illegal and prosecutable.

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by lazs2
I do not have to regester or keep in safe order any vehicle stored in my home..  I do not have to worry about the kids or criminals stealing it and me being to blame.   I can even drive the car drunk as a skunk on my own property.   I do not have to store knives or chainsaws or other potentialy dangerous items properly in the off chance that they may be stolen or injure a child.

Why single out guns?  They are about the least dangerous thing in the house to children so far as accidental death stats go.

lazs

What is the primary use of a gun?

What is the primary use of a chainsaw?

What is the primary use of a knife?

Would you object to your next door neighbour storing say nuclear weapon  components on his property?

Do you agree that guns should be safely and securely stored?

Do you think all gun owners, without question, safely and securely store their firearms?

[Maverick]

Originally posted by Vulcan
What is the primary use of a gun?

What is the primary use of a chainsaw?

What is the primary use of a knife?

Would you object to your next door neighbour storing say nuclear weapon  components on his property?

Do you agree that guns should be safely and securely stored?

Do you think all gun owners, without question, safely and securely store their firearms?

Vulcan,

The first three "statements" you posted are irrelevant to the discussion.

The fourth is relevant but I have yet to see anything in the posts indicating what criteria that the authorities in Australia ( I think that the country that was the subject of the discussion) used to determine proper storage of a firearm is or should be. This includes a total lack of any statutory information relevent to the subject.

The fifth statement is also irrelevant and there are numerous laws regarding possession of fissionables. As a patently obvious exageration it hardly is a valid agruement point.

The sixth item regarding an opinion is a red herring. The obvious answer is no and there are criminals in all continents who do not store weapons properly.  

Please state an cogent arguement and keep it civil.

[Elfie]

Originally posted by Maverick
Zulu,

What is abundantly clear is your double standard in regards to the use of a "personal attack". The observation still stands. f this is your idea of humor, it's lacking a bit. Feel free to have the final word if you must.

Elfie,

 If this was a recent event you need to contact your local Police Dept / Sherrif Dept. and file a complaint. You also need to contact the DEA, with an attorney and have an internal investigation started regarding what you described. The actions you posted are illegal and prosecutable.

I never called anyone about the events I described Maverick for the simple reason that it would be 7 - 8 DEA agents word against just me. There were 3 agents that actually entered my home and another 4 or 5 outside with weapons at the ready. The events happened when my oldest daughter was 4 or 5, she is 10 now.

I realize that those events were (and are still) illegal. Once those agents determined the individual they were looking for wasnt here, at that point they no longer had any legal business being in my home. Thats probably why when I threatened to call the local police, local sheriff, FBI and local TV news that they decided it was time to leave.

Even though no real harm was done I would still like to kick that one agent that threatened my wife in the groin repeatedly until his testicles become useless.

[Elfie]

What is the primary use of a gun?

What is the primary use of a chainsaw?

What is the primary use of a knife?

Primary use of a gun is to fire a projectile.

Primary use of a chainsaw is to cut wood.

Primary use of a knife is to...well....cut things.


Each one is a tool, each one has a legitmate purpose, each one can be used in a manner that is illegal and deadly. Each one also has legitimate uses.


*edit* oops, hit the reply button accidentally heh.

[Vulcan]

Maverick:

Vulcan,

The first three "statements" you posted are irrelevant to the discussion.

lazs introduced the knife, chainsaw comparison. Do you choose to exclude these counter-comparisons only because it suits your point of view.

The fourth is relevant but I have yet to see anything in the posts indicating what criteria that the authorities in Australia ( I think that the country that was the subject of the discussion) used to determine proper storage of a firearm is or should be. This includes a total lack of any statutory information relevent to the subject.

Why is it irrelevant. So far the pro-gun quarter seem to think a "mans home is his castle" and the government should not be interested in what goes on in his castle. I am merely comparing two devices, both of which have no other purpose to function as a weapon. Once again you see to want to dismiss comparisons when it doesn't suit your point of view.

The fifth statement is also irrelevant and there are numerous laws regarding possession of fissionables. As a patently obvious exageration it hardly is a valid agruement point.

Why is it irrelevant? The pro-gun group here are fervently arguing againts these laws. My question is if they believe that guns should be stored safely and properly in the light of their opinion that that is their business and not the governments. I want to know who decides what is appropriate.

The sixth item regarding an opinion is a red herring. The obvious answer is no and there are criminals in all continents who do not store weapons properly.

Let me ask you this then. Are there people who do not store guns safely and properly who are not convicted criminals?

Please state an cogent arguement and keep it civil.

My points of view have been nothing but civil. Perhaps you are confused over who has posted what. Cogent argument? You mean like saying "my home is my castle" or the "police can pry my gun from my cold dead fingers". Once again, I find more hypocracy.

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by Elfie
I never called anyone about the events I described Maverick for the simple reason that it would be 7 - 8 DEA agents word against just me. There were 3 agents that actually entered my home and another 4 or 5 outside with weapons at the ready. The events happened when my oldest daughter was 4 or 5, she is 10 now.

I realize that those events were (and are still) illegal. Once those agents determined the individual they were looking for wasnt here, at that point they no longer had any legal business being in my home. Thats probably why when I threatened to call the local police, local sheriff, FBI and local TV news that they decided it was time to leave.

Even though no real harm was done I would still like to kick that one agent that threatened my wife in the groin repeatedly until his testicles become useless.

Interesting stuff elfie. I use a Treo 600 as a phone, I now record any conversations I have with "law enforcement officers", and take photos (built in digital voice recorder and camera). It goes back to being ticketed for speeding when I wasn't, and told I was the only vehicle on the road during rush hour.