Who decides? THEY do!

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Zulu7
I live in Birmingham mate. Not a very salubrious area. And I work as a youthworker in a part of the city that has just seen one guy stabbed and another assaulted. I'm in the bad bits of town every day and I still would not want to be armed and neither do I want the young people I work with getting hold of guns.

Just accept the fact that our society works ok without the need and I dont want em.

My now lengthy discussion on the topic was actualy started because I felt that nearly every thread in here ended up on the subject sooner or later. Can't we talk about something else in here!?

So, you'd rather you or your friends were killed by a man armed with a knife (we'll just run away in fear, and only the one he can outrun will be stabbed or slashed) than be able to defend yourself. Oh, and if the criminal happens to be among those who succeeds in getting a gun, which of you can outrun the bullets?

Your society works okay? Your law abiding citizens are forbidden from owning a firearm, and/or will be jailed for using one in defense of their life from a criminal, and that's okay?

Tell you what, you KEEP your nanny state, you keep it over there, you keep you silly nannystate ideas out of my nation, and you defend it (your life, your freedom, your family, and your nation) yourself.

[lazs2]

first...zulu... you are the one who starts a lot of the gun threads and you are in every single one of em... Now...Now that they are going badly for you... you want us to just hear you out and then change the subject... Why don't you just say "we get along fine without guns over here so why can't you?"  and then immediately plug your ears and shout naaaaaaaa naaaaaa nnaaa until all the bad men making you think go away?   I don't think you get along fine without guns over there at all BTW.  

Oh wait you did that... you did ask us why we don't do what you do... Why don't we?  because we aren't queen worshiping, socialist pansies is probly the short answer.

vulcan..  I do not think you should be able to drive while impaired.  I do not believe you should be able to shoot while impaired unless it is an emergency. It' not that difficult to figure out.

lazs

[lazs2]

oops... guess virgil said it....

We don't want your nanny state.   We find what you have done to yourself to be frieghtening.

lazs

[Nashwan]

Around here, it is very possible that legal firearm owner in possession of a concealed carry permit and his legal firearm would have shot the knife carrying criminal and removed his threat to society.

What's more likely is that the "knife carrying criminal" would have been a "gun carrying criminal", and he'd have shot someone, not been shot himself.

There are around 10,000 murders committed with guns in the US per year, and only about 250 cases of an armed citizen justifiably shooting dead a criminal.

Those of you with no firearms can run, and hope he doesn't kill your wife and children who can't run as fast as you.

And yet your wife and children are more likely to be murdered in the US than in Britain.

Those are the facts.

vulcan.. I do not think you should be able to drive while impaired. I do not believe you should be able to shoot while impaired unless it is an emergency. It' not that difficult to figure out.

I think Vulcan's point is, the title of this thread, Who Decides? THEY do! applies just as much to drunk driving as to gun storage. Who decides about how drunk you can be when you drive? THEY do!

Who decides about how safely you must store your guns? THEY do!

See the hypocricy? It's fine for the government to set standards on the amount of alcohol you can have before driving, but it's not fine for the government to set standards on how guns should be safely stored.

[lazs2]

no... you are talking about being impaired vs simply being careless... I do not believe that a person should leave loaded firearms within easy reach of children any more than they should walk away from a running lawnmower or chainsaw.   I believe that firearms should be kept out of reach of small children as much as the former or harsh chemicals or knife blocks in the kitchen... Anyone old enough to reach a gun or a knife on the counter or in a kitchen drawer or work the child safety devices should be old enoungh to not touch.

There is no big accident rate for gun deaths of children.   It does not go down with gun storage laws.

Homicides in the U.S. do not go up in states that have concealled carry (more guns in the population).   Taking guns away does not decrease homicides.    

Women shooting abusive husbands are not counted in the self defense role.... A lot of killings go unsolved so we don't know what happened...the FBI stats show that 1.5-3 million crimes a year are prevented with firearms.   How would you make that up in a society where only the government and criminals were armed?

Plus... It is not your human right to drive a car on other peoples roads...  It is a human right to defend yourself or your family... for a lot of people the very best way.... only way.... is a firearm.   How can anyone justify taking this right away from them?

lazs

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by Glasses
I see someone has been Playing Metal Gear Solid huh huh huh?

Never played the game at all, have no idea what format it is on either.

I bought the USP 45 off of my Uncle 6 years ago for $500 and 3 factory magazines.   Best damn, $500 I've ever spent.   I've put at least 2500 rounds (my Uncle put about 3000) through the thing and it just keeps going without fail.

Karaya

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by Zulu7
How many gun threads are there on this board again?

Lazs you and others like you, lurv your guns. Some of us don't. It seems we have reached that point way way long time ago. So how about a different subject as nothing we say will change the situation anyhow. kids will still shoot kids in the US, and you guys will defend your right to be armed to teeth till they prize the thing from your lifeless fingers as you gun nuts might say. And we will probably continue to think your gov nuts for allowing it all!

Next subject please.

The shut the f*** up,  you don't like guns.  Leave it at that and walk to the Pub and wallow in gluttany.  

Or hop on that sissy bike of yours and hit a wall at 153kph.

Karaya

[Nashwan]

Women shooting abusive husbands are not counted in the self defense role.

Of course they are.

The FBI lists less than 300 homicides where the female partner kills the male, and that includes cases of arson etc.  OF course, supplemental data isn't available in all cases, but the total is still low.

Women are simply far less likely to kill.

Or are you suggesting that when a woman shoots her husband, it's not recorded as either a homicide or a justifiable homicide? That would mean the US murder rate is even higher than the FBI shows.

no... you are talking about being impaired vs simply being careless

No, I am talking about the government setting safe standards that restrict people's choices.

You accept that in some cases, where it involves the sacred cow of guns, you get outraged.

There is no big accident rate for gun deaths of children. It does not go down with gun storage laws.

You are ignoring the fact that stolen guns are automatically transferred to a criminal (the guy who stole it).

Even in America, 10% of guns used in crime were stolen by the person who used it, and many more are sold on the black market.

In other countries, with tighter firearms controls, stolen guns are one of the major sources of guns for criminals, so the government enforcing safe storage laws cuts down on the supply of illegal weapons, which is a safety issue.

How would you make that up in a society where only the government and criminals were armed?

I don't know, I live in a country where the criminals aren't armed.

Plus... It is not your human right to drive a car on other peoples roads

They aren't other people's roads. I paid for them.

It is a human right to defend yourself or your family

It's a human right to have freedom to travel. Without it, I can't work, go the shops, go out in an evening, etc.

for a lot of people the very best way.... only way.... is a firearm.

What's wrong with pushing them out of the window? Or using a knife?

I have been reliably informed both pushing people out of a window, and butter knives, are every bit as lethal as guns.

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by Nashwan
What's wrong with pushing them out of the window?

Would it make you fell any better, little girl, if they was all pushed outta windows? -- Archie Bunker

[Maverick]

Originally posted by Vulcan
So what you are saying is its ok to drink and drive just as long as you do not hurt anyone?

Vulcan,

That is not what I said and you know it. Neither is your comment a cogent argument.

[Holden McGroin]

Cop shoots English-speaking attacker who yelled 'kill you'

A knife-wielding Japanese man who screamed out threats in English to a Tokyo police officer has been shot after he refused an order to back off, police said.

The 46-year-old man from Taito-ku was blasted in the arm, but is expected to make a complete recovery. He has been arrested for breaking the Swords and Firearms Control Law and for obstruction of duties of a special public officer.

He had walked toward the officer while wielding a knife and screaming, "Kill you," in English, police said.

Asakusa Police Station said the officer had acted properly in the incident, which occurred in the Yoshiwara soapland district of Taito-ku.

"At this point in time, we believe the shots were fired in accordance with the appropriate regulations," Asakusa Police Station Chief Tomomi Suzuki said.

See how guns can eliminate knife crime?

[lazs2]

sorr5y nashwan... don't buy any of what you have said... first off, most murders are unslolved so neither of us knows the reason... the 300 cases of women murdering their partner are not all counted as self defense even if they could be construed as the only thing left to the women.   It may be justified .... just not in the laws eyes.   If she wakes up and grabs her gun and shoots him while he sleeps because she is afraid of what he might do when he wakes up for instance.

Now, being impaired vs being careless?   you simply can't compare the two.   Intent and due caution are the judgement factors..  I believe that driving impaired is a total lack of judgement and and caution.   I believe that keeping a gun up high enough so that any child young enough to not understand the danger won't come across it is good enough.  

safe storage keeps guns out of the hands of criminals?   Maybe a little but... so what?   The fact that they can get a gun isn't the problem... they will allways get one if they want and... every stolen gun doews not get used in a crime...  why is that?  well.... it is because most criminals are afraid to use a gun in a crime.   That is what is needed... to make using a gun in a crime the real issue... even jb88 understands that.  Show me some proof that safe sto4rage keeps guns out of the hands of criminals or reduces crime in any way whatsever...  Lott's latest study shows absolutely no effect or a slight negative affect too small to quantify.


then... you claim to own the roads?  YOU paid for em?  If that is the case and no one else owns any part of em then you are correct and you alone should be able to drive drunk on em.... you should post signs tho that caution others to use YOUR roads at their peril as you my be totaly drunk and dangerous on em.

You may think you have a human right to drive a car but try to build one in your garage and not have any regestration or drivers licence or safety de3vices on it and see how much right you have...  You have the right to share everyones roads so long as you go by their rules.    My gun in my house is not your concern.

and lastly... the silliest thing you have said (if one could pick somethiong ove another).... you defend taking away the old and infirm and womens rights to defend themselves in the only way possible by offering them the advice that they throw their assailant out the window.   Sheesh...  even at my age I bet I could kick the crap out of most of you geeks that think you are young and strong and can fend off any assailant.   Imagine what you will think when you actually realize how vulnerable you are.   You are kidding yourself... that is fine... it is your right to be ignorant...  I only take offence at your ignorance when you try to tell me how to defend myself or try to take away my rights.

lazs

[mosgood]

Originally posted by wrag
Viet Combat Vets already had a bad rep.  Undeserved IMHO.

I have a story from my childhood that would dispute "undeserved".  But it's about one person in particular so maybe, in general, it is.

[Vulcan]

The icing on the cake for this whole story is I've since found out that those statistics include weapons voluntarily surrendered to police.

It seems that the compensation the Aussie govt was overing was considerably higher than the second hand value of most weapons. So a friend of mines uncle decided to surrender his two shotguns he hadn't used for 10 years, cash in getting a far better price than he would second hand, and not bother spending $ on a storage facility that meets the new requirements.

Kind of makes all the gun nuts screaming liberty-rape in this thread look stupid doesn't it

[wrag]

Originally posted by Vulcan
And who do you think came up with gunlaws and the behest of the people?


as for this  

 

Than what do you consider your words and attitude towards gun storage and safety when considering others? On one hand you demand the right to choose what YOU consider safe, and let anybody choose what THEY consider safe gun handling - and obviously there are people out there that do not choose very well, yet on the other hand you consider a drink driver selfish, selfcentered, and lacking in consideration of others. That it is hypocracy.

You want the law to pander to your own personal needs when it suits you.

GEEEZZZ YOU CAN READ?

Did you actually read my post or just look for something you could use for your argument???  Your wasting everyones time here????  Don't you have a better argument?

I want my rights.  My right to defend myself and my family.  Wait for the police?  BULLSH*T!  The supreme courts has RULED the police do NOT have to protect any individual!  They can not be held accountable if they do not!  The 911 response time can in some area's be over an hour or even NOT AT ALL!  Furthermore the Bill of Rights says NOTHING about the right to drink and drive!   RESPONSIBILITY!!!! Look at my earlier post regarding that word OK?

So long as I'm NOT loading a firearm and going about threating or actually shooting innocent people your argument holds NO LOGIC!  Drinking and driving IS FAR MORE LIKELY TO KILL AN INNOCENT PERSON THEN MY FIREARM!

THEREFORE YOUR ARGUMENT USING BOOZE VS FIREARMS IS INVALID IMHO.

Your logic is NOT working IMHO.

As to gun storage and safety  YOU BETTER STAY THE H*LL OUTA MY HOUSE.

New laws are being consider even as we type these post, in some areas of the U.S., that will allow the home owner to shoot to kill any home invader PERIOD!  Even if that invader is running away!  It's seems it's going back the a home is a castle, a home is sacred.  Any violation of that can result in the death of the violator.  And I agree!

NO ONE HAS ANY BUSSINESS IN MY HOME WITHOUT A COURT ORDER OR MY INVITATION/PERMISSION!