Author Topic: A stupid P38 question...  (Read 3614 times)

Offline straffo

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A stupid P38 question...
« on: February 15, 2005, 02:36:32 PM »
As I'm waiting for some book about the beast * I've a little question.

What made Kelly Johnson choose a twin tail design ?
What is to have each rudder in the stream/airflow of each engine ?





* Sorry for the P38 fan I had to complete my Russian and British book library first :p

Offline SunTracker

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A stupid P38 question...
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2005, 02:48:03 PM »
The super or turbo chargers for each engine took up alot of room, requiring booms to house them.

Offline BUG_EAF322

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A stupid P38 question...
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2005, 02:51:34 PM »
Ask fokker who did it before kelly
:D



img fom http://www.grebbeberg.nl

Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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A stupid P38 question...
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2005, 02:59:08 PM »
He probably put the vertical stabilizers/rudder in the prop's airflow to retain control at speeds that would not produce sufficient airspeed over the rudders.
-SW

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: A stupid P38 question...
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2005, 03:22:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
As I'm waiting for some book about the beast * I've a little question.

What made Kelly Johnson choose a twin tail design ?
What is to have each rudder in the stream/airflow of each engine ?





* Sorry for the P38 fan I had to complete my Russian and British book library first :p


No need to apologize. Fly what you like, and read about what you like.


The twin tail design was chosen because it made it easy to house all of the needed engine and turbocharger pieces, and allowed the guns and pilot to be in the center. it was the most simple and efficient way to get two engines on one plane, which was what they needed for high altitude interceptor use. The P-38 was originally designed to be a high altitude interceptor, and not a fighter plane.

As a side note, which book did you purchase?
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline straffo

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A stupid P38 question...
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2005, 03:28:45 PM »
I choose this one for starting :
Warren M. BODIE
THE LOCKHEED P-38 LIGHTNING

Dunno if it's the better but it was availlable and I've to start reading about Us plane now for a change :)

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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A stupid P38 question...
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2005, 04:16:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
I choose this one for starting :
Warren M. BODIE
THE LOCKHEED P-38 LIGHTNING

Dunno if it's the better but it was availlable and I've to start reading about Us plane now for a change :)


It is likely the best book on the subject. Bodie worked for Lockheed until about the mid eighties, as an engineer. The book was written with input from all of those involved with the P-38 who were still living. Bodie is also a founding member of the Split S Society if I recall correctly. I used to correspond with him, back when I was involved with David Mason's project on Major Thomas B. McGuire. As Widewing can attest, Bodie is a crotchety old cuss, but well versed in the subjects he writes on.

I do hope you enjoy the book.:cool:
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Guppy35

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A stupid P38 question...
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2005, 04:38:09 PM »
Savage is absolutely right.  Bodie's book is the best out there on the 38.  

Now when and if you get around to 38's in combat, look up anything written by John Stanaway.  His 38 pilot and unit histories are some of the best.

Dan/Slack
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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A stupid P38 question...
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2005, 07:08:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
Savage is absolutely right.  Bodie's book is the best out there on the 38.  

Now when and if you get around to 38's in combat, look up anything written by John Stanaway.  His 38 pilot and unit histories are some of the best.

Dan/Slack


Yes, indeed, Stanaway has some incredible material that shows the true story regarding the pilots and units, and how they performed in combat.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline GtoRA2

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A stupid P38 question...
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2005, 07:21:07 PM »
Good choice Straffo, it is a GREAT book, my copy has been read so many times it is close to falling apart.


LOL they are right to , Bodie is a crotchety old guy, I send him an email telling him how much I loved the book and we exchanged emails for a few weeks. Interesting man, tad easy to offend though lol.

Offline bunch

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A stupid P38 question...
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2005, 11:30:27 PM »
I remember seeing a .jpg (probably on this BBS) of Kelly Johnson's initial ideas for a twin engine interceptor drawn on what looks like maybe a bar napkin.  If anyone knows....hey i found it it, TY google



Personally I like #3

Offline HoHun

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A stupid P38 question...
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2005, 12:21:38 AM »
Hi Bunch,

>I remember seeing a .jpg (probably on this BBS) of Kelly Johnson's initial ideas for a twin engine interceptor drawn on what looks like maybe a bar napkin.  If anyone knows....hey i found it it, TY google

Thanks, that's fascinating! :-)

2 and 3 were probably out immediately - despite the aerodynamic advantges, the drive train is extremely difficult to get right. Dornier, who was fascinated with the same concept from WW1 on, built an experimental sea plane in the 1920s that tried to exploit the advantages of such a layout (which wasn't a success).

6 was probably out due to the difficulty of bailing out of such a plane. (Dornier's final, successful implementation in the Do 335 provided a jettisonable airscrew as well as an ejection seat.)

5 was the Twin Mustang idea, basically sound. The out of centre seating might have been considered problematic - at least, it was in WW2 Germany until flight tests proved it was perfectly OK :-)

1 is entirely conventional, and I have to admit that I don't see an obvious advantage for option 2, which Kelly finally chose. There are many high-performance twins with layout 1, so the reason for his decision would be very interesting indeed :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Widewing

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A stupid P38 question...
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2005, 12:55:36 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GtoRA2
Good choice Straffo, it is a GREAT book, my copy has been read so many times it is close to falling apart.


LOL they are right to , Bodie is a crotchety old guy, I send him an email telling him how much I loved the book and we exchanged emails for a few weeks. Interesting man, tad easy to offend though lol.


The way to handle Warren is to yell at him... a lot. He can be a genuine pain in the keister at times. Trust me, I co-wrote a series of articles with him a few years ago.

It finally got to the point that I stopped working with him to avoid the pissing contests.

Don't get me wrong, Warren is a national treasure. No one I have met can approach him on American aviation knowledge. He has well over 100,000 original photos and negatives, many of which he took himself. He's well into his 80s now (82 or 83), and as busy as ever. He's beaten cancer twice and is as feisty as hell. I'd rather neuter a bobcat in a phone booth than listen to his temper tantrums tho....  :)

Warren lives in western North Carolina, near the border with Georgia, on a lake in a big house, which he shares with his dog. His wife passed some years ago, and Warren still mourns for her.
He drives a Jaguar XK-8, a sedan and a pickup. His vision has been giving him trouble and he only has one truly functional eye. But that doesn't even slow him, much less stop him. He has a strict work ethic and will be writing as long as he can breathe.

Bodie is his own publisher (Widewing Publications). He does his own layouts and design (assisted by Bob Boyd, his graphic artist). He's a very talented man, with more ambition than guys 1/4 his age. About two years ago he picked up another co-writer and they produced at least two books together. If I know Warren, the co-writer does most of the first-draft writing, with Warren editing, providing the photos (which is 50% of the books) and writes the captions, which are often hundreds of words long.

Yeah, he's easy to offend, but I think it's because he's a bit insecure since his wife died. Don't let his gruff manner fool you, he's a softy at heart and generous almost to a fault. If he likes you, he'll do almost anything for you. If he doesn't like you, there will be no mistaking it.

Buy his books, they're worth every penny. In fact, his P-47 book is selling used for 4 times it's publication price. You can great deals on used Bodie books at Alibris.com, but finding the P-47 book is difficult, and expensive.

My regards,

Widewing (now you know where I borrowed the name)
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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A stupid P38 question...
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2005, 07:50:48 AM »
That's as good and fair a description of Warren as you could ask for. It was Widewing who first put me in touch with Warren, I've since lost contact with him. Warren has his reasons for his temperment. I'm sure he figures he has a very finite amount of time left, and wants to get everything done that he can. So you can really understand when he gets short regarding some subjects, he doesn't feel he has the time left to waste. I can admire him for that. He is truly as good a man as you'll find. He also feels he is doing something that will never be done if he does not get it done. He's desperately trying to get the full story of the USAAC/USAAF in World War II in writing and published. He's not pulling any punches, and he's not playing any favorites, he's telling it like it was. You really can't go wrong with Warren's books, because Warren hates being wrong.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline GtoRA2

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A stupid P38 question...
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2005, 10:40:40 AM »
LOL Widewing, I would say your right on target, hehe I paid 80 bucks for a slightly damaged copy of the p-47 book.


Boy does he not like hollywood types.


Had some insite into the Jeff ethels death, and some on him as a man, not very flatering stuff.


I am going to have to check to see if I still have the emails somewere. I hope I do, I have meaning to drop him a email and see how he is doing.

Colorfull old guy, the way old guys should be!