A stupid P38 question...

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

It should be noted that Warren had financial and business disagreements with Jeff, and those do tend to color his view of Jeff. Also, to be fair, Jeff is not the only one who Warren had those issues with, but he is of course dead, and unable to speak for himself. There is, or was, a lawsuit between Warren and Jeff's family as well.

What Warren once told me most aggravated him was an interview on the PBS program Nova, where he felt Jeff took too much credit for work he and Warren did together. One should note that those programs are often severely edited, and what Jeff said may have been edited out of context, and some of what he said may have been edited out completely.

Regarding Jeff's untimely death, and the circumstances that surrounded it, Warren had some very interesting things to say. He placed a lot of blame on the plane itself, and how it was modified. He did not agree with much of the FAA investigation, and much of what he said makes sense. Last I heard, Bruce Pruett, who owned the plane and decided on the modifications, was suing Erickson Sky Crane and Jack Erickson over the loss of the plane.

It is interesting to note that the plane was recovered mostly intact, one wing was cut away for the recovery, and it was stored mostly intact at an airport. A friend and former P-38 pilot, who corresponded with Jeff drove up to see it, but oddly enough, the plane was cut into very small pieces and sold for scrap, not salvage, but scrap. This was done, according to the airport personnel, within day after the wreck was inspected by the FAA and released. odd, from the FAA report and description, the plane was quite salvageable and repairable. Figure 16K pounds of mixed scrap, even mostly aluminum, would bring about $3K at best. I know of total wrecks that were sold for over $70K. Imagine the value, in the mid 1990's, of a mostly complete wrecked P-38.

[GtoRA2]

"Regarding Jeff's untimely death, and the circumstances that surrounded it, Warren had some very interesting things to say. He placed a lot of blame on the plane itself, and how it was modified. He did not agree with much of the FAA investigation, and much of what he said makes sense. Last I heard, Bruce Pruett, who owned the plane and decided on the modifications, was suing Erickson Sky Crane and Jack Erickson over the loss of the plane.

It is interesting to note that the plane was recovered mostly intact, one wing was cut away for the recovery, and it was stored mostly intact at an airport. A friend and former P-38 pilot, who corresponded with Jeff drove up to see it, but oddly enough, the plane was cut into very small pieces and sold for scrap, not salvage, but scrap. This was done, according to the airport personnel, within day after the wreck was inspected by the FAA and released. odd, from the FAA report and description, the plane was quite salvageable and repairable. Figure 16K pounds of mixed scrap, even mostly aluminum, would bring about $3K at best. I know of total wrecks that were sold for over $70K. Imagine the value, in the mid 1990's, of a mostly complete wrecked P-38."


He mentioned that the plane was sold for scrap when I talked to him and it seemed fishy, I think, and mind you these emails were a year ago or more that he was implying the owner had played with the insurance and the insurance company ordered it destroyed, or something.

he mentioned to me as well he thought the FAA saying pilot error was wrong and he thought he plane was burning, and I think he even mentioned jeffs jacket was burned?

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Okay. Here is what I've learned about it over the past few years.


First, Pruett had Erickson restore the plane Jeff was killed in, and in return he gave Erickson the plane now known as "Tangerine" which was the name of Jeff's father's P-38 in World War II.

It was Pruett who decided that the fuel tanks and radiators in his plane be modified or replaced. The entire fuel system was modified. The modifications were done in accordance to Pruett's wishes.

According to the FAA report, the plane fell almost straight down, moving less than two feet after impact, and was spinning slowly at the time. In fact, one tree penetrated the wing, and was not sheared away by the plane's movement (this is the wing that was cut away during salvage operations).

Now, this plane fell straight down, but Jeff was found several yards away, face down, with some evidence of fire damage to his clothes, and part of the seat supposedly attached. This implies that he was thrown out of the plane straight forward, despite the plane impacting the ground with practically no forward movement.

Also, the FAA states the nacelle of the plane was partially consumed by fire, supposedly a post crash fire (how did Jeff sustain evidence of fire damage if he was thrown from the plane on impact, and the fire was post crash?), and yet the engine stopped due to fuel starvation. The hydraulic fluid is not likely to ignite, some sort of fuel or oil had to be ignited.

The FAA states the fuel switches were in the wrong position. Jeff was quite aware of the difficulty in operating the fuel system of the P-38. Did Jeff simply panic, or was he searching for fuel to start the engine, or was he trying to shut the fuel off to stop a fire? Only Jeff knows, and we can't ask him.

Warren said that he felt Jeff was either desperately looking for fuel, or possibly trying to shut the fuel off to keep it out of the cockpit. He said that it was likely that there was a fire in flight due to a fuel leak, and the fuel went to the center nacelle due to the dihedral of the wings. He also said he felt Jeff could not have been thrown from the plane, but that he jumped or tried to jump to escape the fire when he could not get the fire or the plane under control.

I am unaware of any settlement Pruett got from insurance, and I am also unaware of any settlement of the lawsuit he had against Erickson. Like Warren, I find it very odd indeed that Pruett had the plane completely destroyed and sold for scrap, considering both the value of the plane, and the fact that it would provide the evidence of Erickson's guilt in the loss of the plane. I'd really like to know what ever came of all of it.

In any case, it was a truly tragic loss of both a great plane and a great person, despite his issues with Warren, Jeff was a great person, and an asset to aviation both past and present.

[Badboy]

Originally posted by straffo
What made Kelly Johnson choose a twin tail design ?
What is to have each rudder in the stream/airflow of each engine ?

I think this extract from LOCKHEED HORIZONS Issue Twenty Three provides the answers to your questions, and the source of the sketch posted previously... Note that the image posted previously appears to have been cropped to omit the initials of the author.  

"A number of configurations were conceived by the Lockheed design team to meet the single-place twin-engine requirements of Project X608, Figure 5. (note the initials):

The most conventional arrangement placed each of the engines in wing-mounted nacelles, concept 1. Layouts indicated that the internal placement of the many elements of the propulsion, gear, and armament systems could not be arranged in a manner that used the airplane internal volume to best advantage.

Placement of the two engines in the fuselage along with the pilot led to three other configurations, concepts 2, 3 and 6. Two of these designs used gear boxes and drive shafts so that the propellers were mounted on the wing, either in a tractor or pusher propeller arrangement. Complexities of gearing and shafting and anticipated problems of engine cooling eliminated these ideas. Concept 6 provided for a tractor propeller in the forward fuselage combined with a pusher propeller at the rear of the fuselage. Complementing this arrangement were two tail booms spanned at the rear by the horizontal tail. Problems with rear-engine cooling and the propeller strike hazards related to pilot escape gave reason to discard this design.

The twin-boom arrangement had attractive advantages, so two other alternatives, concepts 4 and 5, were laid out for study. The design which placed the pilot in a fuselage pod along the airplane centerline was found to be the most preferred of these two designs. Concept 4 became the final, most logical choice mainly because the boom arrangement nicely accommodated all the elements of each powerplant, allowed room for landing gear stowage, and at the same time provided proper aircraft balance. Behind the counter-rotating Curtiss 3-bladed propellers and the V-1710 Allison engines there was room for the inlet scoops and the General Electric turbosuperchargers and cooling scoops. The main landing gear wheels could be retracted be hind the superchargers, just in front of the Prestone radiators. In addition, there was space for air induction and cooling ducts, as well as room for other aircraft systems components.

In this arrangement, the propeller slip stream would provide ram air for cooling, and increased air flow over the two rudders so as to enhance direction control. The hot Prestone coolant was removed from the cockpit area. All the internal fuel was contained within the wing. Maximum efficiency in the use of airplane volume was achieved and favorable airplane fineness ratio and low frontal area offered minimized parasite drag."

Hope that helps...

Badboy

[Guppy35]

And number one turns out to be the Mossie and number 5 turns out to be the F82

Dan/Slack

[GtoRA2]

Virg
 Do you have any idea what was done to the fuel system and radiators? And why? I am just curious at this point.


How many hours did Jeff have in the P-38? Is it true this happend right after he made the roaring glory video and that video flight was his first p-38 flight?

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by GtoRA2
Virg
 Do you have any idea what was done to the fuel system and radiators? And why? I am just curious at this point.


How many hours did Jeff have in the P-38? Is it true this happend right after he made the roaring glory video and that video flight was his first p-38 flight?

According to everything I've read, the fuel tanks were removed and replaced with smaller aluminum tanks, with the leading edge tanks deleted, it was cheap and expedient. I read that the Prestone's were replaced because the replacements were cheaper than real ones or repairs. The plane was supposedly destined for the Smithsonian.

According to Jack Erickson, Jeff had about 8-10 hours before the accident, mostly in Jack's plane. They were practicing for a trip to the annual P-38 Association reunion.

I think it happened about a month or so later than the video.

[GtoRA2]

So they cheaped out cause it was going to be a static display eventualy?


Hey do you know if there was a p-38 that crashed in England a few years back and what the story was on that?

[straffo]

Thanks for the comment guys.

Look like I've to print this thread and add it to the book

[Bodhi]

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts

It is interesting to note that the plane was recovered mostly intact, one wing was cut away for the recovery, and it was stored mostly intact at an airport. A friend and former P-38 pilot, who corresponded with Jeff drove up to see it, but oddly enough, the plane was cut into very small pieces and sold for scrap, not salvage, but scrap. This was done, according to the airport personnel, within day after the wreck was inspected by the FAA and released. odd, from the FAA report and description, the plane was quite salvageable and repairable. Figure 16K pounds of mixed scrap, even mostly aluminum, would bring about $3K at best. I know of total wrecks that were sold for over $70K. Imagine the value, in the mid 1990's, of a mostly complete wrecked P-38.

The aircraft in question was not scrapped.  

The insurance company had a bulldozer driven across the rear nacelles at the center section production breaks to "remove the possibility of it flying again".  

The aircraft still exists, and will be restored when Mr. Pruitt decides.

As for lawsuits, I do know that Jeff's family sued Mr. Pruitt and that he has become very bitter about the whole issue.  

The reasons I have been told for the crash are that the fuel selector broke at a joint on the selector shaft, and that it was impossible to switch tanks at that time as you can not reach the selector shaft belw the cockpit floor.  

As for aluminum tanks, they were a logical replacement as the rubber was not available at the time, and were manufactured in accordance with approved standards at the time.  It is tragic that Jeff Ethell died.  Extremely.  But it also tragic that a man like Pruitt was treated the way he was by Jeff's family as well.

[HoHun]

Hi Badboy,

Thanks for the quote!

However, all of the quoted advantages could have been achieved with a conventional twin layout just as well as with the twin-boom layout. (For example, twin rudders like the Me 110's would have provided air flow over the rudders just as in the twin boom layout.)

I suspect the twin boom layout was attractive for its lower structural weight rather than for aerodynamic advantages.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[Widewing]

Originally posted by GtoRA2
So they cheaped out cause it was going to be a static display eventualy?


Hey do you know if there was a p-38 that crashed in England a few years back and what the story was on that?

That crash was due to pilot error, maneuvering too close to the ground, a wing tip dug in and the P-38 cartwheeled into a ball.

You can get some background on that P-38 from Jack Ilfrey's book, "Happy Jack's Go Buggy". I described its fate in volume 4, number 5 of Airpower International magazine (published by Strike Publications, Queensland, Australia).

When first introduced to the public at Duxford, the restored P-38J was painted in Ilfrey's colors (79th FS, 20th FG). Jack was invited to the event with the pilot actually wearing Jack's ancient RAF flying gloves. This occured on July 4th 1992. The crash occuring in 1996 during the annual airshow, killing pilot Hoof Proudfoot. At that time the markings had been changed to "California Cutie", yet another 20th FG P-38J.

My regards,

Widewing

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Bodhi
The aircraft in question was not scrapped.  

The insurance company had a bulldozer driven across the rear nacelles at the center section production breaks to "remove the possibility of it flying again".  

The aircraft still exists, and will be restored when Mr. Pruitt decides.

As for lawsuits, I do know that Jeff's family sued Mr. Pruitt and that he has become very bitter about the whole issue.  

The reasons I have been told for the crash are that the fuel selector broke at a joint on the selector shaft, and that it was impossible to switch tanks at that time as you can not reach the selector shaft belw the cockpit floor.  

As for aluminum tanks, they were a logical replacement as the rubber was not available at the time, and were manufactured in accordance with approved standards at the time.  It is tragic that Jeff Ethell died.  Extremely.  But it also tragic that a man like Pruitt was treated the way he was by Jeff's family as well.

That is very interesting Bodhi. It does not at all match what I was told by people I talked to.

Have you seen the plane or pictures of it? I saw one picture of the crash site itself and the plane, but I have not seen it but once. A bulldozer (average bulldozer would be 6 to 8 FEET wide)driven over the rear sections of the tailbooms would likely destroy everything between the back of the engines and the horizontal and vertical stabilizers. The insurance company must have paid Pruett an incredible settlement for him to allow them to do that to the plane.

I was also told that Pruett wanted to wash his hands of the planes and all matters concerning them as soon as his suit with Erickson was settled.

I'm not aware of the lawsuit between Jeff's family and Bruce Pruett. I was aware that Pruett sued Jack Erickson. I take it Jeff's family is accusing Pruett of negligence of some sort.

Airport personnel told at least 2 P-38 pilots who went to see it that it had been cut up into small pieces and sold for salvage, the day after the FAA released the wreckage.

The FAA report ignored the condition of the fuel selector switches and only reported what position they were in. No mention was made in the reports I read of whether either switch was working properly. The only mention was that they had pins in them to prevent them from reaching the positions for the leading edge tanks, that they were set in the reserve position, and that the drop tanks were disconnected.

All in all Bodhi, you have some very interesting information, I'd like to "hear" more. Thanks.

[GtoRA2]

Widewing
 interesting, I thought I had seen video of it going in, (the england one) And it look like a highspeed flat spin, but I could be remebering wrong.


I have Happy Jacks go buggy here somewere just have not read it yet.

Thanks for the info guys.


This has been a great thread.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Actually, it was an aileron roll at too low an altitude. The normal routine called for a single aileron roll, but a second roll was done and a wingtip clipped the ground and it cartwheeled in. If you have been around long enough to remember the Kraits Squadron, originally from Air Warrior, like my unit, the 327th, you'll remember their current CO, a guy named Spiffy. If you contact Spiffy, he can put you in touch, maybe, with a member of their squad that was there and saw it. He once told me it was the only time he'd ever seen a P-38.