Author Topic: A stupid P38 question...  (Read 3631 times)

Offline mars01

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A stupid P38 question...
« Reply #45 on: February 18, 2005, 01:47:00 PM »
God I hate that pic of those junked 38s.

Could you imagine knowing your bird is on the pile.

Offline Bodhi

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A stupid P38 question...
« Reply #46 on: February 18, 2005, 02:16:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
USN lays claim to all their lost birds.  USAF/USAAF declared them lost etc.  I don't know the details and no one is sharing them as it's apparently being done 'quietly' as not to draw too much of a crowd.  If you hang around the warbird boards, the topic comes up and the folks commenting on it seem credible.

Not US government backed though.  Individuals with the bucks and the cooperation of the Phillipine Govt.

I'd like to know more too, but it's gone quiet lately. Supposadly photos of some of the first recovered are out there somewhere and considering they were buried they were not in horrible shape.

As with any warbird hunt, you always have to take it with a grain of salt of course as it could turn out to be zilch.

Dan/Slack
Who wishes he'd just win the lottery one time :)


The USN has surrendered all claims to aircraft on land which is a recent development, those in water are still protected by them, although that is possible to beat with lots of money for lawyers.
I regret doing business with TD Computer Systems.

Offline StarOfAfrica2

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A stupid P38 question...
« Reply #47 on: February 18, 2005, 05:26:42 PM »
What I am really wondering about is the motivation for the people involved.  Are they history buffs?  Warbird lovers hoping to restore 1 or 2, or maybe more to the skies?  Or are they looking for buried treasure (i.e. hope to dig up parts and sell them to get rich).  Money is tight in the Philippines right now, and the economy is about to take a serious nosedive.  I can easily see someone there figuring out how much people will pay for parts, or even partial planes if they can dig up anything in decent shape, and selling to the highest bidder after they are sure they have scavenged all they can thats useful.

Offline bunch

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A stupid P38 question...
« Reply #48 on: February 19, 2005, 04:40:21 AM »
What is the total value in warbirds at the bottome of the English Chanel?

Offline StarOfAfrica2

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A stupid P38 question...
« Reply #49 on: February 19, 2005, 01:24:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bunch
What is the total value in warbirds at the bottome of the English Chanel?


Little different there, I'd think.  Those would be considered the same as graves and I doubt anyone would ever get permission to mess with them (unless there was actually a NEED to, and even then there'd be alot of people watching and I doubt anyone would be allowed to make a profit off of them).

Offline BUG_EAF322

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A stupid P38 question...
« Reply #50 on: February 19, 2005, 04:00:45 PM »
Quote
Have you ever seen the replica in Soesterberg? There's a D-21 there too. Did you ever read the G-1 book by Hugo Hooftman? It's rather primitive by todays standards but contains a wealth of information. I have an ex-library copy of it.



Havent seen em yet its on the target list.

Still the bird looks good.
What would it have been if it had been further developed?

like beter engines 2x 900Hp isn't much and its guns 8x .303 changed into .50 or cannons.

i believe it had a bombbay.
the thought on the aircraft was pretty modern it could be used as anything.

true a multirole aircraft.

As sexy as a lightning

Offline bunch

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A stupid P38 question...
« Reply #51 on: February 20, 2005, 12:51:40 AM »
Star, I've read at least a dozen books by gentlemen who went for an involuntary swim in the chanel & survived to write about it & I sort of assume most of those aircraft wouldn't have any skeletons in them

Offline hogenbor

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A stupid P38 question...
« Reply #52 on: February 20, 2005, 07:25:52 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
Havent seen em yet its on the target list.

Still the bird looks good.
What would it have been if it had been further developed?

like beter engines 2x 900Hp isn't much and its guns 8x .303 changed into .50 or cannons.

i believe it had a bombbay.
the thought on the aircraft was pretty modern it could be used as anything.

true a multirole aircraft.

As sexy as a lightning


It WAS a truly multirole aircraft. I do not know if they had a genuine bomb bay (have to look it up), but they could be converted to light bombers as wel as reconaissance aircraft (with a third crew member).

Two versions of this bird existed, The 'A' (postwar designation) with Bristol Mercury engines (like the D-21) en d the 'B" with Wasp engines. The 'B' was slightly smaller and originally meant as an export aircraft. They were hastily pressed into Dutch service as the threat of war grew. Nevertheless they did not see combat, the few that were combat capable were destroyed on the ground or captured.

Several weapons set ups were tried, including 23mm cannon, but service aircraft all standardized on the 8 0.303's.

Fokker toyed with the idea of building a fully metal G-1, it is known that a metal wing was constructed but never used. The G-1 still used the 'classic' Fokker way of building aircraft, with wooden wings.

The planned successor to the G-1, the G-2, was of much more conventional layout (think Bf-110). Planned powerplants were RR Merlins or DB601s. Only a mock up was ever constructed.

Dutch pilots however, seem to have preferred the D-21 due to its simplicity. The G-1 was indeed faster but still about 50mph slower than the Bf-109E. It could however dive very fast, to the extent that it really needed dive brakes. I do not know if these were fitted to all G-1's though.

Regards,

Ronald

Offline StarOfAfrica2

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A stupid P38 question...
« Reply #53 on: February 21, 2005, 03:58:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bunch
Star, I've read at least a dozen books by gentlemen who went for an involuntary swim in the chanel & survived to write about it & I sort of assume most of those aircraft wouldn't have any skeletons in them


And you would determine which one is which.........how?  I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm not even one of the affected parties as I'm not English by descent.  And while my mother's family is German and Norwegian, I dont know of any relatives who might have died there so I really could care less.  All I'm saying is, alot of men died in that stretch of water during the BoB, and I think alot of people would have a problem with it if someone started poking around down there trying to dredge up a plane or planes to make a profit off of.  Planes buried in a pit at the end of the war because they were scrapped is a totally different thing.  To me anyway, which might mean squat to the rest of the world.  It's just my opinion.

Offline BUG_EAF322

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A stupid P38 question...
« Reply #54 on: February 21, 2005, 11:28:45 PM »

Offline Guppy35

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A stupid P38 question...
« Reply #55 on: February 22, 2005, 12:30:23 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
And you would determine which one is which.........how?  I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm not even one of the affected parties as I'm not English by descent.  And while my mother's family is German and Norwegian, I dont know of any relatives who might have died there so I really could care less.  All I'm saying is, alot of men died in that stretch of water during the BoB, and I think alot of people would have a problem with it if someone started poking around down there trying to dredge up a plane or planes to make a profit off of.  Planes buried in a pit at the end of the war because they were scrapped is a totally different thing.  To me anyway, which might mean squat to the rest of the world.  It's just my opinion.


There has been very little to come out of the English Channel that is even recognizable.  They've pulled some planes out of the sands of the French beaches, a 109E, a couple of Spits and a couple 51s, but not much else.  Seems like I remember a 109E coming out of an English port too from the B of B.  The Saltwater and the action of the tides etc really wreck the Channel stuff.

It's the planes found in freshwater lakes that have been the remarkable finds.  There's a Halifax in Canada that is being restored that came from a Norwegian lake.  An He111 and Ju88 were just raised last summer and were in remarkable condition.  The list is long for those kind of recoveries as the deterioration of the aircraft is so much less.

Numerous aircraft are coming out of Russian lakes as well.  Aeroplane Monthly had a photo of a P39 just recovered in remarkable condition.  Pilot still in the cockpit.  He got a state funeral.  I saw a photo of a 109E that came out of a Russian lake in amazing shape.  P40s as well.

Check this site for the Norway recoveries.

http://home.no.net/kjellsor/jonsvatnet.html

Pics of the 111 recovery here:

http://home.no.net/jornaasl/jonsvatnet/serie1/

More on both the Ju88 and 111 in Norway

http://home.no.net/jornaasl/jonsvatnet/

And more good stuff on them

http://trd.airpics.com/litw.php?del=litjonsvatn

Needless to say there are lots more wrecks out there that will be recovered in similar shape.

Personally I want Alan Bunte's 4th FG P51B that he ditched in a German lake south of Potsdam :)

Dan/Slack
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Offline StarOfAfrica2

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A stupid P38 question...
« Reply #56 on: February 22, 2005, 02:17:47 PM »
Which goes to show why people dont ask my opinion when they make decisions.  :)  My wife always tells me I'm wrong, I just didnt believe her.  Damn.