tigers are outta control

[rabbidrabbit]

Originally posted by BALSUR
I read that BB flit, some good stuff there. I noticed they did alot of testing on tank destroyers. I saw that an average of 10 sec for firing and when working out of the "G" rack its was 17.8 secounds. I happened to come across the Tiger gunner's manual. It is stated that expected performance was to have 1 hit outta 3 within 30 secounds. So, an average of 10 secounds. Just did alittle test and AH's tigers firing rate of 4 secounds. Which is the firing rate of the Flak 88 but not the Tiger's 88. So, I dont know if this was overlooked but can it be fixed?

"It is stated that expected performance was to have 1 hit outta 3 within 30 secounds"

Perhaps you don't know how a tank crew and the firing process works but from how I read this they are talking about the process not just the act of reloading the weapon system.

This process includes identifying target, confirming targets, the sighting process for the gunner and shot.  Follow up is ammo load ident, ie; he or ap the loader clearing the tube and shoving the next round into the chamber and telling the crew he is cleared of the recoil path.  

As far as strictly loading, if the loader knows what to expect next you can bet that he will have already have pulled the next shell off the rack and have it ready to slam home once the shot is made.  The process could easily take 3-4 seconds in a well trained crew.

[Zulu7]

I thought the Tiger was uber tough in reality. Just have to gang up on em.

[BALSUR]

Your right Madbull I've been in a tiger before that seemed to take alot of damage. Most things in tank town I write off to the fact that tank town has really weird things going on. It's during the normal field battles that throw me. I've seen a Tiger take a ton of bombs and nothing then I've been in a tiger and have a 100 lb drop 200 yards behind me and kill my tank. Which brings me to the next topic of my next thread. Air fire power on tanks. It has been discovered that the allies exaggerated kill statics to defeat the "tigerphobia". Only 2% of tanks destroyed where with rockets and only 4% with bombs. 60% where scrubed by their own crews because repairs couldn't be easily made or they ran outta supplies. But thats for the next thread.

As far as loading , aiming and so on. The gunner could stay on target while the loader loaded the next round. Thus eliminating aim time. The loader could not have the next round waiting because he had to clear the breach of the used shell casing and visaully clear the breach and barrel to prevent explosions from fouling.

[rabbidrabbit]

Balsur,

On the reloading issue.  There are always written policies and procedures and then there is how it is actually done in combat conditions.  Do you think the loader, with his life on the line by the second is going to waste his time to look up a barrel after a shot to check for fouling?  nope...

To open the chamber it just a pull of the lever, the shell pops out then slam the new one home, close the chamber.  4 seconds is optimistic but reasonable from what I understand and from personal experience.

[BALSUR]

The Tiger's 88 shell casing had to be removed by hand. So, it wasn't an issue to look up the breach.

[BALSUR]

well, I think I made my case. All I want to know now is Pyro going to change the time table or leave it. Even though we have alot of old cav men here. The manual is all we have to go by. Especially  since I can't seem to find any living Tiger Commanders around. there is the documentation by the Brits who put the tiger through its paces, posted by flit also.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by BALSUR
Your right Madbull I've been in a tiger before that seemed to take alot of damage. Most things in tank town I write off to the fact that tank town has really weird things going on. It's during the normal field battles that throw me. I've seen a Tiger take a ton of bombs and nothing then I've been in a tiger and have a 100 lb drop 200 yards behind me and kill my tank. Which brings me to the next topic of my next thread. Air fire power on tanks. It has been discovered that the allies exaggerated kill statics to defeat the "tigerphobia". Only 2% of tanks destroyed where with rockets and only 4% with bombs. 60% where scrubed by their own crews because repairs couldn't be easily made or they ran outta supplies. But thats for the next thread.

As far as loading , aiming and so on. The gunner could stay on target while the loader loaded the next round. Thus eliminating aim time. The loader could not have the next round waiting because he had to clear the breach of the used shell casing and visaully clear the breach and barrel to prevent explosions from fouling.

 Been saying that for a while now
That number goes down even farther with gun, cannon fire from AC

As far as load time.
Once you have acquired target reload and aim time goes down considerably.
Not to mention the added incentive one has to reload with speed when ones life is really on the line.
I'd say the 3-4 second time is probably pretty accurate.

On the other hand, Last night I witnessed a tracked tiger taking rounds from at least 3 other tanks as well as no less then having bombs dropped on it from no less then 10 aircraft. I personally saw this same tiger get hit dead center by bombs and sit in the center of a bomb crater and not so much as smoke and kept on firing.
A direct hit even if it did not destroy the tank would have been enough to scramble the brains of its occupants.
One of the tactics we used against the concrete pillboxes was to hit it with a couple of rounds from a tank destroyer. It didnt destroy or often didnt even penetrate the pillbox but the concussion alone was enough to as I said scramble the brains of and render incoherent, its occupants,

THAT being said I have had bombs hit many yards from my tiger and disable/destroy me also.

A direct hit on a tiger from a bomb should be enough to at least disable it and /or wound the crew (good case for pilot wounds in GVs) Anything less then that should depend on the distance and size of the bomb dropped

Also I believe the M8 AP rounds are also slightly undermodeled.
While no match for a tigers armor it should at least be able to with a direct hit knock the tread off even a tiger.

[rabbidrabbit]

Not to disagree since I don't know better but they had to remove the spent casing by hand?  I figured they would have retained the lever mechanism used on other versions of the gun since pulling a several hundred degree piece of brass out of a breach sounds painfull at best.

[MadBull]

Now wait a minute. I'm not totally convinced yet with your case.
 First off I would like to see a copy of the manual.
 Second those military manuals are made from data collected from firing ranges of some sort.
 I was not a tread head myself when I was in the army but I have been to a couple of their firing ranges for their tanks.  And as their running down the "trench" there are target's to the left and right.  Which would mean they would have to include turret rotation time in the equasion to come up with the " 3 in 30 sec."  And we all know how slow the tiger turret turns.
This would also mean that the whole sequence of events that should take place to fire a round would have to be included for each shot on each target.
  And in you other post you say the brits tested 4 different people in their timing mesurement without aiming.  But these people's lives were not on the line during the test. And they did not have the repetitive practice a actual crew would have nor the adrenaline rush factor.
 So being an ex-military man myself I would have to agree with rabbidrabbit. Those manuals are more than often wrong when it comes to actual man time. The crew they usually use to collect the data off of is usually a bunch of out of date desk jockies. With no repetitive training. And they follow the manual to the " T "  And in live combat hell no you don't follow the manual to the " T ". That thing would get you killed.

[Anchor]

Just make the perk cost a little higher.

There are some problems with the modeling. I have seen tigers sit on a VH base and take salvo after salvo from planes and never die. I'm talking about many, many bombs with no apparent damage.

I think the impact of a close call round is next to nothing on a tiger, and maybe it should be. ??

However, a spawn camping problem is a problem. Because of the unrealistic nature of spawning, you can take a invulnerable tiger and get kill after kill. Its just crazy.

However, there is nothing better that to kill a tiger trying to get back to his base with 43 kills from spawn camping.

hehe.

Make it more costly, but the modeling should be realistic.

[TalonX]

My Tiger's fold up like cheap suits...

I'd love to have one that could take 18 rounds...  Heck, I'd settle for 3 or 4.

I agree the perks required are out of line with the capability.

[BALSUR]

As for the manual u may find it on the internet under "how to shoot" tiger gunner's manual If i could figure how to post it here I would.

Now, since we have so many exmilitary who obviously didn't use a manual and therefor never received any formal training I can understand their unwiilness to accept change. But, since the only information we have available are field tests and manuals then we have to assume the time tables giving are accurate.

[rabbidrabbit]

Now, since we have so many exmilitary who obviously didn't use a manual and therefor never received any formal training I can understand their unwiilness to accept change.  [/B]

Don't be an ***, it does little to forward your position.

[BALSUR]

Hey, I am not the one saying throw out the manual and the other data. That's the only information available that I know of. Just because someone drove an M60 tank in 1980 doesn't mean they know anything about a Tiger tank in 1944. SO, inclosing this thread for me. All I want to know is Pyro going to adjust the reload time to the information we have or is it going to be left at 4 secounds?

[rabbidrabbit]

Just because you read something does not mean it must be right and the world must revolve around your desires based on your interpretation of some stuff to read.  

Here is another example of the manual being wrong.  At the Expert Infantry Badge  test series one has 45 seconds to deploy and fire a AT4 law.  One would think that it's a cumbersome and complex process but in fact it was not.  I would have no problem prepping and firing the weapon within 5 seconds with a bit of practice.  Am I super human?  no...  many others would be able to do the same with practice.  Most manuals are written by folks who have little or no experience with the system in practice.  In practice , trained and experienced personel often find ways to refine the process considerably.  That is my point.  

You might be kinda right but don't just trash folks who bring up valid points.  To do so is quite sophmoric.  If you find a few statements from experienced crews it would help your position.  But to insist you are right when you have such limited evidence and no experience with anything of the sort is a mistake.  To deride others just because you think you are right is a reflection on your character not theirs.