Please unperk the Spit14, F4U-4, Tempest5 and the Ta152H

[Kweassa]

PART 1

 As I was flying today, I met a low La-7 in a Bf109G-6. He was trailing about 5~6 guys behind him at 1500yd+.  I had about 3~4k alt advantage on him, saw him coming from my low 12, so I tried to time my Split-S so I landed right in the firing range.

 Was too bad that I have terrible gunnery. I landed at about 400d behind him and as I estimated, got only about 1 second window, which I missed. As I saw the range tick from 400 to 600 to 800.. I thought to myself, "boy, it sure friggin' pays to be flying in a 380mph deck speed plane".

 I had a chance and I blew it. But the "...friggin' pays..." part I thought to myself, keep lingered.

 .............


 I sure as heck don't pay zilch when I want to fly a Bf109G-10. Neither does anyone who runs like a girl in their Runstangs, Hunstangs, and Typhoons, and especidally La-7s.

 According to Whels's OTD speed records:

OTD Speeds on WEP
* La-7: 380
* Fw190D-9: 375
* Typhoon Mk.Ib: 370
* P-51D: 367
* Bf109G-10: 366

 The five fastest planes do well over 360mph at deck. These five planes are literally impossible to catch when a guy with even the slightest hint of SA starts to run with a headstart. Only when someone else is around in one of those same five planes with a significant alt advantage, will he be able to run it down, and often after a long chase even in that case.


 How about the planes that are next on the list, which can be considered pretty much 'competitive' in terms of speed/performance in the MA?

OTD Speeds on WEP
* F4U-1: 358
* P-51B: 358
* F4U-1D: 357
* F4U-1C: 356
* La-5FN: 356
* Yak9U: 355
* P-38J: 350
* Fw190A-8: 349
* Fw190F-8: 349
* P-38L: 344
* Ki-84-Ia: 344

 The above point on the OTD speed list is probably what can be at least 'loosely' be determined as being really "MA-Competitive". Most of the listed planes above have a good solid trait in one category, and is also fast enough to survive in typical hectic MA conditions. The next batch of the listed planes starts with P-47s, with 344mph deck speed on WEP, but dinky acceleration and heavy maneuvering... and it continues to what we would call the "mid-war planes" category.
 ....


 All of the planes listed above are free. Most of them are competitive. However, even so, most of the preferred choices of the arena are still limited to the top 5 planes.

 For me, it was quite interesting to  watch what would happen when the Ki-84-Ia was introduced, because judging from my own experience in that bird, and judging by the specs it boasted, it was to be one of the most influential planes that could reshape the tendencies of MA plane usage. The initial implementations was a bit of a letdown, but the quick patch made it one of the most potent birds in MA combat.

 Great acceleration, great climb, superb handling, excellent roll, good firepower, pure turn performance matching that of a Spit9, super low-speed performance matching that of a P-38, good overal visibility(except the frontal canopy bars)...and it's still as almost as fast as a La-5FN!

 Basically, this Ki-84-Ia we have is the "have-it-all" plane. A plane with almost no weaknesses. However, to everyone's surprise(as shown in previous threads about why the Ki-84 was unpopular), it didn't really catch on.

 We saw the rise of the Ki-84-Ia in many other MMOG flight sims, different from AH but still sharing many simular traits. It was a 'uber' plane in Fighter Ace series, used by the Banzai squad, hated by everyone. It was 'uber' in War Birds, it was 'uber' in AW, and it is 'uber' in IL2/FB. That thing puts La-7s and Yak-3s to shame in IL2/FB.

So, howcome its not as popular here?


 That got me thinking.


 The only difference between our Ki-84 and "their" Ki-84, is that both can do the same things, except "theirs" is about 15~20mph faster at deck. In other words, "their" Ki-84 is the Ki-84 which does all of the stuff it can do in AH2, but is faster than Mustangs and can catch up with La-7s.

 It's an interesting analogy. The MA plane usage is divided into two groups for the most part. At one side, there is the "dragsters". The Typhoon, P-51D, La-7, Bf109G-10, and the Fw190D-9. It's pretty obvious why these are popular. But the other group, is made up of Spit5, Spit9, and N1K2. Among them the Spit9 saw a steady drop in usage, while the new 16+ boost Spit5 usage actually increased, in this new MA with new gunnery that made "speed = king".

 There are about 10~15 planes I can count out, as being "balanced" as "in-betweens" between those two groups, and yet none of them are really comparable when it comes to popularity. The Ki-84-Ia of AH2, is one of them.

 .....

[Kweassa]

PART 2

 So, why am I bringing this up when the thread is titled, "Please unperk the Spit14, F4U-4, Tempest5 and the Ta152H"?

 It was to try and show that in the MA we fly in, most of the community is made up of average people. And average people, really don't like "Balanced Planes".

 They like one of the two extremes. These average people have roughly 1-to-1 kill/death ratio, and they have two different ways of keeping it at that level.

1) Fly the fastest plane they like, either the "Allied" type, or the "Luftwaffe" alternative. And fly around for long. These people don't die much, but as "timid" as they are, they also don't get much kills.

2) Fly the easiest handling planes with good firepower and acceptable speed. Fly a Spit9 or a Spit5 or a N1K2, and follow the fast planes around. When a furball forms, jump in, kill some planes, and then get shot down immediately. These guys die a lot, but they also make quick kills before dying.

 Either way, the "balanced" middle point is a very hard thing to grasp for most people. Try a Ki-84-Ia for instance. You see a furball forming. This plane has some good speed, but its not as safe as a La-7, obviously. However, it's also not really as easy as a Spit5 in killing stuff quickly. It's competitive enough to go for all out battles, but there's no assurance that you would be walking out of it alive.

 You need to carefully measure the situation and choose how to engage in these 'in-between' planes, and this is something the 'average' can never do. If they can do that, they aren't 'average' at all.

 This is the reason why the 'in-between' planes can never gain too much popularity. It's like the "P-38" jokes of old times. Jack of all trades, Ace of none. It takes someone who can do everything to fly these planes.

So, in judging the two key ingredients that make up popular planes, most of the perked planes I am requesting to be unperked, do not have what it takes to be so popular as to seriously unbalance the arena.


 So, if we put the list of the "competitive MA planes" together(the Spit5, N1K2, and Spit9 is left out on grounds of being in the 'different category' of MA popularity):

OTD speeds on WEP
* Tempest Mk.V: 386 (perked)
* La-7: 380
* F4U-4: 378 (perked)
* Fw190D-9: 375
* Typhoon Mk.Ib: 370
* P-51D: 367
* Bf109G-10: 366
* Ta-152H-1: 361 (perked)
* Spitfire Mk.XIV: 358 (perked)
* F4U-1(A): 358
* P-51B: 358
* F4U-1D: 357
* F4U-1C: 356(perked)
* La-5FN: 356
* Yak9U: 355
* P-38J: 350
* Fw190A-8: 349
* Fw190F-8: 349
* P-38L: 344  
* Ki-84-Ia: 344

 If we look at it this way, its hard to understand why those some planes are perked, or at least, at such horrendously high prices.

* Is it on grounds of 'historical rarity'? Well, the 3-gun La-7 was probably the rarest of all the planes in the above list, and yet it dominates the arena.

* Is it on grounds of 'performance'? Most of the perked planes are still slower than the unperked ones! The Spit14 climbs like a Bf109G-10 but has only half of its WEp duration. It's still not as fast unless it goes to 25k. The Ta152H is a burden at best, when compared to the much lighter Fw190D-9 which does everything better except in pure firepower and some turn performance.

* Is it on grounds of 'MA effectiveness'? Well, the F4U-1C which once saw 20% usage, was perked on that grounds. It was also a rare plane, and there is good reasoning when one points out that if the F4U-1C with quad-Hizookas are free, the F4U-1 and the F4U-1D would go extinct. However, this plane is perked at only 8 points.
 
* Or, is it on grounds of 'superior balance'? As mentioned in the first part of the thread, there are very many planes with 'superior balance' of speed and maneuverability. If it's not super fast, or super easy to fight in, people don't want it.

 So basically, when all of the '44~'45 late-war planes are totally free to be indulged, it is great deal unfair and unreasonable to see some of the planes above in the list, which are by no means superior to anything else, especially in terms of typical MA-type multi-engagement, perked, and perked so highly in their cost.

 Why can't we have a 378mph F4U-4 running amok in the arena? We already have a 380mph 'pure fighter' La-7, and 370mph 'greased pig JABO' Typh running around free!

 Why can't we have a 358mph Spit14 running around the arena for free? When we have a perk-free 366mph Bf109G-10(which is actually modelled to Bf109K-4 specs)??

 Why can't we have a 361mph Ta152H-1 for free in the arena, when 375mph Fw190D-9s which do everything better, are always there?

 For the sake of argument, let's say these F4U-4, Ta152H-1, Spit14, is indeed 'uber'. But are they as 'uber' as the La-7? Or, at least, are they so much 'more uber' than the La-7 that the La-7 is totally free, but the F4U-4 is perked at 50, Spit14 at 60, and Ta152 at 20? The Tempest at 75??

 If we already have uber planes in the arena thats for free, and then we let loose some of the perked uber rides for free, will these 'new ubers' totally replace the 'old ubers'? Are these planes so powerful?

 Or, will they coexist with the old ubers, and as a result, actually increase diversity?

 Way back, I've suggested a NPA which was comprised of two parts. One was perking the previously unperked latewar rides, and the other was lowering the perk prices of over-priced planes to that same level. I've faced many critics who emphasized on that first part, but somehow none of them ever looked at the possibilities of unperking, or very lowly perking the planes that were severely heavily perked.

 
 So, this, is my new suggestion.

 If you, we, don't want to perk more late-war planes by limiting the choices, then let's go the other way. Let's unperk the overpriced planes so they can coexist with the current planes.

 The MA won't be pushed back into the '43 arena like I have originally visioned, but at least it will remain a full late-war arena now. With more diversity of 'latewar uber planes' to choose from, instead of the same pool again and again. All these Typhs, Run-ninetiess, Runstangs, and Run-oh-nine's and Lgays around ticking you off?

 Then, why not add Spit14s, Ta152s, F4U-4s into that equation? What have we got to lose?


 So, my new set of perk suggestions:

*Set1

Tempest: 15 points
Ta152H: free
Spit14: free
F4U-4: free
F4U-1C: 5 points


*Set2 (if, somebody thinks that Set1 is too lenient..)

Tempest: 30 points
Ta152H: 8 points
Spit14: 8 points
F4U4: 8 points
F4U-1C: 5 points


 
 Unperk the perked planes, or at least significantly lower their prices please!

[wetrat]

I don't have the patience to either run from or chase down people, so that's all fine with me.

The tempest, however, does need to be perked - at least at 30. The thing is a monster... put aside the ridiculously good flight characteristics for a second. The thing has quad 20mm lazers mounted on the wings. These things aren't just hizookas... they're next-gen UBERhizookas. The last thing we need is people deeming tempests expendable (at 15 perks, who gives a damn? I can make that on 1/4 a tank of gas in an early 109) and jousting with those Golly-geen lazers. Getting hit with those things is similar to being kicked in the balls by an angry donkey.

[BlauK]

I support your agenda, but I would aproach the situation from opposite direction: more perks, not less!

Perk also the following planes:

* La-7

* Fw190D-9
* Typhoon Mk.Ib
* P-51D
* Bf109G-10

Not much, but just a few perks. That should encourage people to fly other planes as well. All of these planes have almost similar sub-types that would stay unperked... La-5, lots of FW:s, hmm no tiffies (maybe keep tiffie unperked), P-51B, lots of 109:s.

btw. This suggestion comes from a person who has flown 109G-10 most of the time

[Kweassa]

Hehe... Blau, that was exactly what the old NPA was about. It started out with that exact approach, before I found out that how many people can get so amazingly touchty when I suggested their 'favorites' should also be perked at 3~5 points.

 So, I went to the opposite alternative.

 If everybody wants to fly their '44~'45 'dragsters' for free, fine. Then let's increase the free choice of 'dragsters' available.

[Manedew]

I don't think you understand why the spit14 is good.......

I don't think you appreciate how easy perks are to have and keep for some people .......

I just think you don't understand how a good pilot can use these planes.......

f4u4 is only plane excepet chog where i've landed 20 kills with no rearm......

I routinely I land 7+ kills when I take up a tempest

a spit 14 can out zoom almost anything ... it just keeps climbing .. do you understand that??

This is one thing that makes p38L great ... it can go up up up ... or a ki-84 ........ I really don't think you understand .... .

as for the 152 it is uber and rare and very hard to fly...... so is the 262.......



I really fail to see these points as valid .... it would make more sense to perk  more planes by your reasoning, but not haveing a free P51D is not a good idea in a flight sim .... and if you perk the other's it's only fair to perk the 51D ...


the point is the current system was well thought out if you think about it .......  HTC just didn't say  ... oh we will perk this, this and this ..... it's pretty well thought out IMHO

[Fruda]

Seems to me that the Tempest Mk. V shouldn't even be perked. It's a pig at low altitude... Fast, yes, but other than that, it's a sitting duck. It's one hell of an easy kill if you're coming in from a dive.

The F4U-1C shouldn't be perked. It doesn't even have the performance of a P-51B. Sure it has firepower, but it comes at a very high risk. You *really* have to know how to fly the F4U-1C to get anything out of it.

The Ta-152H-1 shouldn't be perked. Why's this? Well, it totally out-classes everything except the Me-262 above 40,000 feet... However, nobody flies that high! Below 20,000 feet, it's a sitting duck. Its only advantages are speed at altitude, massive firepower, generous maneuverability up high, outstanding dive performance, and exception energy retention in the vertical. But for the most part, it's just impractical. Since you can hardly find any targets at an altitude above 8,200 feet, you still have a high risk of being raped by La-7's or even Typhoons down low. Take the perk price off.

The Spitfire Mk. XIV: This series shouldn't be perked, period. Whether it's the model we already have, or the F Mk. XIVe, it's got glaring disadvantages. It can't take much damage. It's got extremely short range. It has limited ammunition. It does have a lot of speed and great agility, but still... Take the perk price off. It's not an easy plane to fly, and it's definately not forgiving.

The F4U-4: Well well... This plane is in the same class as the vaunted P-51D Mustang. It does exceed it one area, though: It's just plain faster. The P-51D rolls, turns, and generally handles better. It also has greater range, as well as better ground attack capabilities. It's also a much more forgiving aircraft, and is far less stall-prone than the F4U-4. So why is this plane perked? If we're to have a perked Corsair, add the F4U-4C. Sure, it only entered service nearing the final weeks of the war, but it did see combat. If we're to get the F4U-4C, take the perk price off of the F4U-4 and make the -4C a ~15 perk point model.


That's where I stand on the currently perked aircraft...
...And these are the aircraft that should be perked.

La-7 (3x Berezin-20): Who's gonna argue? Superb agility, outstanding speed, great climb, and is a very forgiving plane to fly. It's also got what is probably the best autocannon in the game. These things alone make the 3x B-20 La-7 a perk-worthy plane. Verdict? About 15 perk points.

Fw 190D-9: Currently, it is a vastly under-modeled plane. Once 2.03 is released, that will change, and this bird will be mightier than even the Mustang. It doesn't have the range or ground attack options of the P-51D, but it's just such a wonderful plane to handle. It's very easy to fly, it's got a good deal of armor, very powerful guns, it's extremely fast, and it can out-roll almost anything in Aces High. The Dora will be abused and potatod for all it's worth, unless a perk price is issued. About 10 perks should do the trick.


...So that would make just two perk planes. And rightfully so --- A Spitfire Mk. XIV that can't even perform at the level of the Spitfire Mk. V we have at low altitude shouldn't be perked, just as a very difficult, bullish F4U-4 Corsair shouldn't. And tell me why a Tempest, of all planes, deserves a perk price. It's sluggish and a bastard to fly, and can be picked off from almost any diving plane with relative ease.

What I'm really trying to say is this: A new system needs to be worked out. A rolling planeset makes more sense than a perk-based system... It would restrict players to an extent, but the payoff would be phenominal. Just think: No more complaining about squads only using "dweeb planes". No more complaining about being totally out-classed by a group of swarming La-7's. It would actually level the playing field.

[BlauK]

Can anyone think of some other games where the player gets the best rides or guns right from the beginning? Do e.g. the quakers whine that they want to have the BFG all the time because they come from a BFG-clan? ( = the old whine "we are a p-51D squadron... blah blah").

Progress and rewards from good playing are what make a game intresting. If one want to fly a certain perked plane... make them work to get to and to stay in that plane.

Encouraging variation is never a bad thing.

[Fruda]

Exactly, which is why a Rolling Planeset would be such a good idea. Who gives a damn about the whining morons like you described? I think we'd be better off without idiots who only know how to fly one plane and one plane only.

[Kweassa]

So Mane, you're saying the F4U-4, Spit14, and Ta152H-1 should be respectively perked at 50, 60, and 20, because it is that much superb a plane that deserves such a high cost when compared to the La-7, P-51D, Fw190D-9, Typhoon and the Bf109G-10?
 
 Oh, and btw, how many times you've upped a F4U-4 or a Spit14 in the midst of a low-alt fight and landed 9+ kills while not doing any of the timid BnZ stuff?

 A salute your skills, Mane, but surely even you have to admit that when you take up a 50~60 point plane for a spin, you think twice before you enter a low-alt furball and fight at equal terms with the enemy planes around you, without any particular regards to advantage in alt, numbers, or quality of pilots around.

 I've seen you jump into the enemy fray in a P-38, often outnumbered, but still fight to the last to save a friendly and manage the fight to go on. I've also seen you in Tempests, which I humbly must point out you fly it nothing like you would fly a P-38.

[Fruda]

I wouldn't even dare step foot 10 miles from a furball in a perk plane. Except for the Ta-152H-1, of course. That thing is a monster if you use it right.

Still, it's really not a perk candidate. It's got such terrible low-alt performance... I mean, why bother even flying it half the time? Take the perks off... We need a system overhaul!

[Kweassa]

Personally, I'm not much intrigued in the RPS, but I'm not against it either. But I admit that this is because my favorite planes are Bf109s, and the 109s served in the war since '39 to the very end in '45.

 However, things could be different for people who like P-38s(not available 'til '42), P-51s(not available 'til '44), or Yak-9s(not available 'til '43).

 So I fully sympathize with the rejections concerning the RPS. This would be a good thing if AH started out that way from the very beginning, but people are so much used to flying their favorites that its really very hard to even merely suggest a slight limitation on it, even on the grounds of better gameplay.

 So, then, if everybody understands so well how deprived they feel when someone wants to 'take away' or 'perk' their P-51s or La-7s, then they should feel the same way towards some people who love Spit14s or F4U-4s as their "ultimate RAF ride" and "ultimate USN ride" respectively.

[Fruda]

But then, remember what happened with the FM overhaul when AH2 was released? The idiots wouldn't quit whining, even though their precious P-51D was finally modeled correctly. They wanted their ultimate uber killing machine. They didn't want realism.

They discovered that they actually sucked at flying the Mustang, and that they were absolute aces when flying an unbalanced megaplane.


My point is, things *have* to change. An RPS system really wouldn't be bad. Think of it rolling every week --- A new day, a new, expanded planeset. And when most people are on (Friday-Saturday), they get to fly their favorite planes.

It's not quite a win-win, but it has major advantages over the perk system, and it seems to me we'd be better off with the RPS.

[Wilbus]

The people who take-off and engage in a low alt fight near their own field have them selves to blaim for getting killed without getting kills. They wouldn't get any more kills in a Tempest then in a Spit 5.

When you bring a plane into a furball you will most likely die, doesn't matter wether it is fast or not if you don't know how to fly it.

I agree with lowering the perk cost some for them all, but unlike you, I don't think it is about the plane, it's about the pilot.

Give a n00b or even an average pilot a Tempest and throw him into a furball he won't do much better then in a Spit 5 or 9 simply because he can't fly it.

[Fruda]

I never said it wasn't about the pilot. I do think that the pilot makes more of a difference than the plane.

Still, my point stands. An RPS system would be far better than the current system we have. It would make a truly level playing field, ripe with diversity.