Author Topic: First Prayer in Congress 9/7/1774  (Read 2237 times)

Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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First Prayer in Congress 9/7/1774
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2005, 10:42:43 AM »
The only thing with a soul darker than Satan himself is a born-again Christian.
-SW

Offline Raider179

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First Prayer in Congress 9/7/1774
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2005, 12:31:38 PM »
10 commandments didn't keep the founding fathers from owning slaves.

Offline ChickenHawk

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« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2005, 12:54:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Raider179

Exodus 31:15

Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy [4] to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Yeah lets kill people for working on sunday.  


I've been reading this board for six years and have managed to stay out of every political and religious post so far, but this one gets my goat every time.  Since when did Sunday become the seventh day of the week?  The Jews have been selebrating Saturday long before Christianity came along and believe me, they have never missed a week or gotten the days mixed up.

Just sayin...
Do not attribute to malice what can be easily explained by incompetence, fear, ignorance or stupidity, because there are millions more garden variety idiots walking around in the world than there are blackhearted Machiavellis.

Offline Raider179

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« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2005, 01:18:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ChickenHawk
I've been reading this board for six years and have managed to stay out of every political and religious post so far, but this one gets my goat every time.  Since when did Sunday become the seventh day of the week?  The Jews have been selebrating Saturday long before Christianity came along and believe me, they have never missed a week or gotten the days mixed up.

Just sayin...


Then you know that the reason some groups ( I didnt know jews did) celebrate/go to church on saturday so they dont violate the above rule about the sabbath.

http://www.topraise.net/pages/torah/sat-sun.htm

It is generally known and accepted that the early Christians observed the seventh day Sabbath, that is Saturday. It is also a matter of record that the Roman Catholic Church made the decision to change the Christian day of worship from Saturday to Sunday

 A passage in The Cathechismus Romanus, printed in 1566 by order of Pope Pius V reads, "It pleased the church of God, that the religious celebration of the Sabbath day should be transferred to 'the Lord's Day.'" The reader should know that there are multiple sources, which verify this fact. In short, the Catholic Church freely admits that, based on the same authority by which the doctrine of Purgatory was conceived, and "by virtue of her divine mission, substituted the observance of Sunday…… for the observance of Saturday, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority" (A Doctrinal Catechism, p. 174).

 seems that at the root of this decision was the desire to distance the predominately gentile church from anything resembling Judaism. In 365 A.D., the Council of Laodicea convened to settle, among other things, the Sabbath question. The Council stated that, "Christians must not Judaize on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather, honoring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema [accursed] from Christ (Nicene and Post Nicene Fathers, Vol. XIV, p. 184). In short, they forbade any Christian from resting on the day they readily agreed was the Sabbath, and established Sunday as the day of worship. At first glance, the logic behind this seems to be born out of the will to acknowledge "the Lord's Day." Yet, once again history brings this belief into question.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2005, 01:37:23 PM by Raider179 »

Offline Furious

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« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2005, 01:23:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
christians and athiests are both fine with me so long as neither has a say in my life.


Lazs wins again.

Offline Seagoon

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First Prayer in Congress 9/7/1774
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2005, 03:16:58 PM »


The following is a random stream of replies. Sincere apologies to the uninterested.

1) Regarding tax exempt status It is true many churches and clergy misuse this status, but then again as we've seen even at the highest levels, so do NGOs and Non-profits. Regardless of your political point of view, the burgeoning Oil for Food scandal shows that even the world's largest NGO is riddled with corruption. People always will misuse benefits as long as there is a corrupt human nature at work. Additionally, businessmen frequently cheat on their expenses, and file false tax deductions. Is abuse an argument for ending the practice of tax deductions unilaterally? Take away tax-exemptions and our church would go under within a year, it would also force us to end all diaconal (charitable) assistance. Also, please keep in mind that the tax exemption only applies to the institution, I still pay income tax, soc. security, etc. and that on a salary that is much smaller than when I was a Systems Administrator in the corporate world. Most of the guys I know in the ministry have made huge sacrifices in time, money, and family, and generally we are the lowest paid workers with graduate degrees in America. The answer lies in greater accountability, and not donating to NGOs and NPs that aren't members of voluntary externally audited accountabilty organizations like ECFA. I myself am independently audited, and would be subject to church discipline and quite possibly permanent removal from office if I cooked my meagre books.

2) The presupposition seems to be that  what we are fighting for is the introduction of Christianity into places where it historically didn't exist. The explicitly Christian prayer from the first congress at the beginning of the thread and countless other examples one could cite from the 18th-19th century show that opposite is true, that generic Christianity has been systematically removed from the public square.

This has reached the point where students are forbidden to pray prior to a football game, prior to eating in a school cafeteria, or at their graduation.

In Sweden pastors have already been successfully prosecuted simply for preaching on subjects like homosexuality. In Canada, a man who ran newspaper ads against same sex marriage was successfully prosecuted and heavily fined, while in Australia 2 ex-muslim pastors (both refugees from Muslim countries) were successfully prosecuted for "hate crimes" for teaching a seminar on Islam and quoting from the Koran. Generally speaking, America albeit slowly follows the cultural lead of the Western world, and there the signs for freedom of religion for Christians are not encouraging.

Also, please remember that there is no such thing as a truly neutral worldview, if we remove any mention of what the bible teaches about human sexuality from a forum, and instead invite homosexual advocates come in to teach their worldview (which is for instance the case in Bay Area and NYC Public Schools), we have made a positive decision to remove one philosophy and endorse another.

Most of us are simply advocating freedom of religion in the midst of growing campaign to create "freedom from Christian religion."

3) What makes these discussions generally impossible is that as a culture we have largely abandoned any notion of absolute truth. We have gone from endorsing Christ's "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me." (John 14:6) to being far happier with Pilate's cynical "What is truth?" (John 18:38)

But if there is no final truth, no absolutes, and no final arbiter, then discussions of morals are ultimately meaningless. One cannot describe a point without another fixed and unchanging point of reference. It is as impossible as plotting your position on the sea from driftwood. Therefore, if all we have is "preferences" then as the existentialists pointed out "everything is ultimately meaningless" and who cares who rides the back of the bus?

Without an absolute standard, the actions of a Pol Pot or a Stalin are no better or worse than those of the greatest philanthropists. We may personally "prefer" the actions of the philanthropist, but we cannot call them "better," and then ultimately it devolves into a will-to-power to determine whose preferences win the day.

4) This may seem surprising, but I too was once militantly opposed to the Christian faith, I hated it and opposed its tennets and adherents as much as I could. I selfishly lived my life doing what seemed right in my own eyes and was grateful to no one and nothing. Had I continued on that line, I have no doubt that today I would be divorced, my children would be completely rudderless, and my life would be nothing but a nihilistic and selfish quest to get all I could before "winking out of existence." So yes Midnight, while I do have a calling to be always "prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect" (1 Pet. 3:15) I'm not preaching anything I haven't personally experienced the power of myself.

Anyway... Sorry for being so dang longwinded. I've always held that for every complex question there is short answer, and its wrong.

- Seagoon
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2005, 03:23:25 PM »
Egads, did I write all that? :eek:

When am I going to learn that these boards are for short, pithy, zingers designed to score quick points?

Bad Seagoon. Mea Maxima Moron. Must go finish sermon prep.
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline SOB

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« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2005, 03:28:17 PM »
Regarding the tax exempt status, my comment has nothing to do with abuses of the tax exempt status.  I just feel any religious organization wanting tax exempt status, should have to conform to the rules that any other tax-exempt organization has to follow.
Three Times One Minus One.  Dayum!

Offline Engine

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« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2005, 03:40:19 PM »
SOB is specifically speaking about abuses of tax-exempt status.

Offline SOB

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« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2005, 03:41:41 PM »
I like pizza.
Three Times One Minus One.  Dayum!

Offline Engine

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« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2005, 03:45:17 PM »
burritos are way better though

Offline SOB

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« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2005, 03:48:48 PM »
But what about taco pizza?!  The kind with spicy red sauce to replace the pizza sauce, not the kind with refried beans.
Three Times One Minus One.  Dayum!

Offline Furious

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« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2005, 03:50:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Seagoon
But if there is no final truth, no absolutes, and no final arbiter, then discussions of morals are ultimately meaningless.


This statement is, IMO, patently false.

Offline Raider179

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« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2005, 03:58:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Seagoon
[B


This has reached the point where students are forbidden to pray prior to a football game, prior to eating in a school cafeteria, or at their graduation.

[/B]


Yeah right. What you mean is they want to pray and make the rest of the stadium, cafeteria, graduation listen to it. No one has a problem with anyone praying its when they force others to have to sit through it that people are saying isn't allowed.

Let me ask you this, do you have to pray out loud?

Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #44 on: March 03, 2005, 04:00:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SOB
Regarding the tax exempt status, my comment has nothing to do with abuses of the tax exempt status.  I just feel any religious organization wanting tax exempt status, should have to conform to the rules that any other tax-exempt organization has to follow.


I'm curious as to what unfair benefits you feel that churches have under the tax code that other NPs don't? A summary of the requirements and restrictions on federal tax for churches is available at:
http://www.irs.gov/charities/churches/index.html
 
Also, Engine state tax exemption laws make using your tax exempt id to purchase personal items a crime. Certain items, such as alcohol and tobacco, cannot be purchased on a tax exempt basis, and you cannot write them off as business expenses. I must admit that I am unsure about the status of pornography, but the false professor in your example was at least breaking one tax law.

- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams