Author Topic: First Prayer in Congress 9/7/1774  (Read 2238 times)

Offline SOB

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First Prayer in Congress 9/7/1774
« Reply #45 on: March 03, 2005, 04:14:43 PM »
Essentially, I feel there should be no distinction between a church and a non-profit.  You're either for profit, or you're not.  Drop the religious tax exemption, and if you want to be a charitable non-profit org, then abide by the rules that govern them, and all is good.
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Offline Seagoon

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First Prayer in Congress 9/7/1774
« Reply #46 on: March 03, 2005, 04:34:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Raider179
Yeah right. What you mean is they want to pray and make the rest of the stadium, cafeteria, graduation listen to it. No one has a problem with anyone praying its when they force others to have to sit through it that people are saying isn't allowed.

Let me ask you this, do you have to pray out loud?


No Raider, we've already got court cases where a child was forbidden to say grace by himself before eating in the cafeteria, where students where forbidden to form an after-school bible club despite the presence of other political/philiosophical clubs including a Bi-gay-transgender club, where schools have mandated a no-bibles brought to school policy, and situations where students can wear T-shirts with all sorts of messages, political and otherwise, but not Christian ones.

But the issue strikes at the heart of the free speech issue. At my HS graduation way back in 1987, I was forced to sit through the valedectorian lecturing me about how combustion engines are destroying the planet, and how we all had to go out and work for the whales, to protect our "mother" Gaia, and to end corporate greed. The audience sat through what basically boiled down to an introduction to teenage Earth worship and Ecco-Marxism. Now why should the girl in question have a fundamental right to encourage her fellow students to "smash the machine" and worship the earth, while an other has no right to say word one about Christianity or even to pray out loud?

If you say, because we judge her religion to be preferable, and we despise yours, then so be it.  But let us then at least have an end to appeals to equality, etc.

- SEAGOON
« Last Edit: March 03, 2005, 04:36:14 PM by Seagoon »
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Eagler

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Matthew 7:6
« Reply #47 on: March 03, 2005, 04:42:29 PM »
"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." - KJV

see above
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Offline Raider179

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First Prayer in Congress 9/7/1774
« Reply #48 on: March 03, 2005, 04:59:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Seagoon
No Raider, we've already got court cases where a child was forbidden to say grace by himself before eating in the cafeteria, where students where forbidden to form an after-school bible club despite the presence of other political/philiosophical clubs including a Bi-gay-transgender club, where schools have mandated a no-bibles brought to school policy, and situations where students can wear T-shirts with all sorts of messages, political and otherwise, but not Christian ones.

But the issue strikes at the heart of the free speech issue. At my HS graduation way back in 1987, I was forced to sit through the valedectorian lecturing me about how combustion engines are destroying the planet, and how we all had to go out and work for the whales, to protect our "mother" Gaia, and to end corporate greed. The audience sat through what basically boiled down to an introduction to teenage Earth worship and Ecco-Marxism. Now why should the girl in question have a fundamental right to encourage her fellow students to "smash the machine" and worship the earth, while an other has no right to say word one about Christianity or even to pray out loud?

If you say, because we judge her religion to be preferable, and we despise yours, then so be it.  But let us then at least have an end to appeals to equality, etc.

- SEAGOON


Sorry but I doubt your cases authenticity.  Perhaps you have a news link to it? The only case I found of it the courts gave the girl the right to pray and sided with her rights to pray privately.

Here is a quote from the ACLU

Sure. Individual students have the right to pray whenever they want to, as long as they don't disrupt classroom instruction or other educational activities or try to force others to pray along with them. If a school official has told you that you can't pray at all during the school day, your right to exercise your religion is being violated. Contact your local ACLU for help.

CAN MY SCHOOL HAVE PRAYERS AT GRADUATION?

No. In 1992, the Supreme Court decided in Lee v. Weisman that graduation prayers are unconstitutional in public schools. Think about it: graduation prayers would give nonbelievers or kids of other faiths the feeling that their participation in prayer is required. It doesn't matter who leads the prayer a minister, a priest, a rabbi, whoever, or whether the prayer is nondenominational some kids would feel left out.

WHAT ABOUT RELIGIOUS CLUBS OR BIBLE DISTRIBUTION?

Studentorganized Bible clubs are OK as long as three conditions are met: (1) the activity must take place during nonschool hours; (2) school officials can't be involved in organizing or running the club, and (3) the school must make its facilities available to all student groups on an equal basis. So your Bible club couldn't be the only group allowed access to the school grounds. Neither could your school let other student groups use the building for meetings and events and deny your Bible club the same opportunity.

The organized distribution of Bibles or any other holy book during the school day is unconstitutional, even if teachers aren't the ones actually handing out the Bibles, and even if they're not used as a part of the school's educational program. That's because the school building or grounds are still being used to spread a religious doctrine at a time when students are required to be there.

Maybe you need to contact the ACLU for help if these cases you are citing are real. But I would be willing to bet they are not following the rules and thats why they are in trouble.

I see what you want though and you want to use schools to spread the word of God as you see it. Children are very susceptible to external influences such as religion and by taking it into the schools is a cheap way to get a few more converters. Link me to those cases cause I cant find them.  I doubt they are true or if they are there is more behind them then just some little kid saying his little grace, Or some group that sits in school after its over and reads the bible.In the one case I found the teacher was wrong and the courts fixed it.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2005, 05:01:27 PM by Raider179 »

Offline SOB

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First Prayer in Congress 9/7/1774
« Reply #49 on: March 03, 2005, 05:02:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Seagoon
No Raider, we've already got court cases where a child was forbidden to say grace by himself before eating in the cafeteria, where students where forbidden to form an after-school bible club despite the presence of other political/philiosophical clubs including a Bi-gay-transgender club, where schools have mandated a no-bibles brought to school policy, and situations where students can wear T-shirts with all sorts of messages, political and otherwise, but not Christian ones.

I'd be curious to see a link to the story about the child who was forbidden to say grace by himself, and the end result of that.

Schools do plenty of stupid things, and in my opinion, banning bibles, religious clubs, t-shirts with Jebus on 'em, ect is no exception.
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Offline Engine

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First Prayer in Congress 9/7/1774
« Reply #50 on: March 03, 2005, 05:19:47 PM »
Seagoon, the priest buying $300+ of porn with his tax-exempt card, I threw it in as a funny story, nothing more. Of course it was wrong, and of course it was illegal, and of course he was a ******* for doing it.  At least it was porn, though, and not something stupid like a Golden Girls collectors DVD boxed set.

Offline SOB

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First Prayer in Congress 9/7/1774
« Reply #51 on: March 03, 2005, 05:59:00 PM »
Golden Girls is finally out on DVD?!  Woohoooo!!!
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Offline midnight Target

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First Prayer in Congress 9/7/1774
« Reply #52 on: March 03, 2005, 06:07:25 PM »
MiniD bought the last copy.... sorry.

Offline Pei

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First Prayer in Congress 9/7/1774
« Reply #53 on: March 03, 2005, 06:24:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ChickenHawk
Since when did Sunday become the seventh day of the week?  The Jews have been selebrating Saturday long before Christianity came along and believe me, they have never missed a week or gotten the days mixed up.

Just sayin...


Sunday become the Sabbath day for Christians when Constantine adopted Christianity as the state religion of the Empire: it was already the day of rest in the  roman pantheon and wasn't worth changing apparently.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2005, 06:31:53 PM by Pei »

storch

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First Prayer in Congress 9/7/1774
« Reply #54 on: March 03, 2005, 06:36:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SOB
Essentially, I feel there should be no distinction between a church and a non-profit.  You're either for profit, or you're not.  Drop the religious tax exemption, and if you want to be a charitable non-profit org, then abide by the rules that govern them, and all is good.


Ahh religious institutions losing their tax exempt status. That came about from an unvoted upon piece of.........legislation authored by none other than (then) Senator Lyndon Baynes Johnson in an attempt to squelch mounting opposition to his senatorial re-election campaign in 1954.  It seems that the pathological liar and all around coward LBJ was being exposed from the Texan pulpits.  Lawd knows we cain't hay-ve
op-osit-sheyun to the likes of LBJ.  A classic piece of democratic party demagogory and bogus legislation.  A pastor cannot speak his mind on political issues from the pulpit, eg. our 1st amendment rights are denied us.

say it ain't so.

:D

Offline Holden McGroin

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First Prayer in Congress 9/7/1774
« Reply #55 on: March 03, 2005, 07:50:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SOB
I'd be curious to see a link to the story about the child who was forbidden to say grace by himself, and the end result of that.


Sexist.
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Offline RedTop

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Seagoon,
« Reply #56 on: March 03, 2005, 08:22:58 PM »
It could be that I as a christian , am weak in certain areas. I'm not ashamed by any means. Quite proud of the changes in my life really.

But , this topic on this BBS will do no more than make you hit your head on the wall. If you say it's white there will be a 100 say it's black. Talking religeon with this bunch is useless.  

:(
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Offline Seagoon

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First Prayer in Congress 9/7/1774
« Reply #57 on: March 03, 2005, 10:43:44 PM »
Raider,

The following brief review of actual cases was drawn up in 1995 when the Religious Liberty ammendment was being debated. The one I mentioned specifically was Raines vs. Cleveland Young in bold below. I've cut some cases for the sake of space You'll find the larger article at:
http://www.taemag.com/issues/articleid.16467/article_detail.asp

The Case for A Religious Liberty Amendment

Conservative spokesman William Bennett describes religious discrimination as “the last respectable form of bigotry in America.” Yale law professor and self-described liberal Stephen Carter says religious people are unfairly excluded from public affairs today. Both blame twisted interpretations of the U.S. Constitution.

The First Amendment was drafted to protect religious liberties by forbidding government interference in religion. Many modern politicians and judges have used it to forbid public expressions of faith, however. This, warns Stephen Carter, is exactly backwards: “The danger the separation of church and state guards against is not religion,” he says. “It is the state.”

Below are some recent examples of how the state now interferes with American religious practice. Many observers believe cases like these collectively call for strengthened Constitutional protections for religious freedoms.

Guidry v. Broussard (1990) A high school valedictorian planned to devote a portion of her graduation speech to the importance of Jesus Christ in her life. The principal ordered her to remove the offending portion; she refused and was eliminated from the graduation program. The district court and the court of appeals upheld the principal’s action.

Bishop v. Aronov (1991) A tenure-track professor of exercise physiology at the University of Alabama made occasional references in class to his religious beliefs and offered an optional, after-class lecture entitled “Evidences of God in Human Physiology.” The dean ordered him to cease these activities even though professors at the university were guaranteed academic freedom to make personal remarks during class so long as they were not excessive, disruptive, or coercive. The court of appeals affirmed the dean’s order.

Settle v. Dickson County School Board (1995) Students were asked to choose a topic for a research paper that was “interesting, researchable, and decent.” Among the subjects approved were “spiritualism,” “reincarnation,” and “magic throughout history.” One student, who asked to write on “the life of Jesus Christ,” was refused permission, however, and ultimately received a grade of “zero” on the paper. The teacher stated that “the law says we are not to deal with religious issues in the classroom.” The Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals upheld the grade she awarded to the student.

Lee v. Weisman (1992) The principal of Nathan Bishop Middle School in Providence, Rhode Island, invited Rabbi Leslie Gutterman to deliver non-sectarian prayers at its graduation ceremony. Student Deborah Weisman and her father Daniel filed suit, objecting to being subjected to any prayer as part of the public ceremony, even though Weisman did not have to attend the ceremony to receive her diploma, was not required to stand when the prayer was spoken, and was not even required to maintain respectful silence. The U.S. Supreme Court, in a close decision with numerous separate opinions, held that the Weismans’ constitutional rights under the First Amendment had been violated by the delivery of this prayer and that the school officials should be enjoined from sponsoring a prayer during future graduation ceremonies.

Perumal v. Saddleback Valley School District (1988) Students at a southern California public high school were forbidden to distribute leaflets inviting other students to their Bible study group, despite a California statute specifically permitting students to distribute petitions and other printed materials. The state appellate court upheld the school’s action.

Roberts v. Madigan (1990) A fifth-grade public school teacher was ordered by the assistant principal to remove a Bible from the surface of his desk, to refrain from reading the Bible during the class silent reading period, and to remove two illustrated books of Bible stories from a classroom library of over 350 volumes. The court of appeals upheld the principal’s action, holding that the teacher’s conduct violated the establishment clause.

Loehner v. O’Brien (1994) In Florida, a principal confiscated and destroyed invitations distributed by an elementary school student to her friends inviting them to a church-based alternative to a Halloween party. In this case the courts intervened on behalf of the student.

Garnett v. Renton School District (1993) After passage of the Equal Access Act in 1984, high school students in Renton, Washington, who wanted to form a prayer and Bible study club after school asked permission and were denied. The case took nine years and involved three trips to the district court, four trips to the court of appeals, and two trips to the Supreme Court before the students ultimately won vindication of their rights. At the end, the ACLU and the American Jewish Committee made the extraordinary argument that the school district should shut down its entire extracurricular program rather than allow the students to meet.

Rosenberger v. Rector and Visitors of the University of Virginia (1995) To provide a public forum for their ideas, a group of Christian students at the University of Virginia founded a publication called Wide Awake. Although they met all eligibility requirements for school funding, they were excluded because their editorial perspective was “religious.” The university funds many publications expressing controversial viewpoints of a secular nature, including gay rights, racist, pro-choice, and Marxist journals, but disallows all publications addressing issues from a religious perspective. In a 5–4 decision, the U.S. Supreme Court overruled the university’s decision.

Witters v. Department of Services for the Blind (1989) The state of Washington had a voucher program to pay for vocational education of the blind. Larry Witters, an eligible individual, wished to use these benefits to study for a career in the clergy. Because of the religious nature of his proposed field of study, the Washington Supreme Court held that funding would violate the establishment clause. The U.S. Supreme Court unanimously rejected that position, holding that state assistance for religious training does not violate the First Amendment so long as the aid is made without sectarian preference.

Miller v. Benson (1995) A federal district court ruled that the state of Wisconsin may not extend its school choice plan to religious  schools. A student qualifying for the program in Milwaukee can attend progressive, Afrocentric, or other schools, but not one where the philosophical orientation is religious.

Daniel Lopez v. Tarrant County Junior College District (1994) Student Daniel Lopez was ordered by administrators of his junior college in Texas to stop distributing pamphlets containing Bible verses. College officials threatened him with disciplinary sanctions if he continued to hand out pamphlets on campus, stating that “the campuses of Tarrant County Junior College are not public fora for purposes of free speech activities.”

Raines v. Cleveland Young (1994) Raymond Raines, an elementary school student in St. Louis, Missouri, was placed in a week-long detention for bowing his head over his lunch. School officials interrupted the fourth grader on at least three separate occasions when he attempted to say a private prayer over his lunch in the Waring School cafeteria. On each occasion, Raines was taken to the principal’s office and told to stop praying over his lunch.

FEMA Disaster Aid (1995) After the Oklahoma City bombing, the Federal Emergency Management Agency refused to provide aid to damaged  churches (though they provided much aid during the crisis). Bars, restaurants, bookstores, and other privately owned buildings were eligible for funds, however.
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Seagoon

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First Prayer in Congress 9/7/1774
« Reply #58 on: March 03, 2005, 10:59:24 PM »
Eagler and Redtop:

Your rebukes are well taken as is your citation of Matthew 7:6. I can honestly answer that I have asked myself the same thing. The only thing I would say is that I was definitely on the other side of the fence at one time too, and these gents are positively mild, genteel, and well-behaved by comparison. Never view the lost as the enemy, but rather as captives of the real enemy. When I am tempted to give up or vent my spleen, I go back and remind myself of Paul's admonition in 2 Tim. 2:24-26.

I recall the story of a man who heard John Flavel preach the gospel as a youth, in Liverpool, England in the 17th century, almost 70 years later as an old man in Virginia the HS brought that sermon to mind while he was sitting under a tree, thinking about his dissipated and sinful life. The result was a miraculous conversion. Hey, maybe not today, not tomorrow, even ten years from now, but perhaps something gracious you or I say will be brought to mind someday.

- Seagoon
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline SOB

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First Prayer in Congress 9/7/1774
« Reply #59 on: March 04, 2005, 12:20:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Seagoon
Never view the lost as the enemy, but rather as captives of the real enemy.

Lost.  LOL.
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