First Prayer in Congress 9/7/1774

[Seagoon]

Hi all,

Just an interesting historical footnote that one of the petitions offered up in the first prayer of the continental congress was that "truth and justice, religion and piety, prevail and flourish amongst The people" and yet now 231 years later we find ourselves on the verge of institutionaly extinguishing religion and piety in the public square.

As a friend commented, we seem to have reached a point as a society where pornography enjoys the protections Christian expression once did, while Christianity is being relegated to the public position pornography once held. Ah well, I shouldn't complain as that was the norm in the first through third centuries as well, and this is nothing compared to say, Sudan or Indonesia. I must daily remember Eph. 6:12.


"First Prayer in Congress

September 7, 1774

O - Lord our Heavenly Father, high and mighty King of kings, and Lord of lords, who dost from thy throne behold all the dwellers on earth and reignest with power supreme and uncontolled over all the Kingdoms, Empires and Governments; look down in mercy, we beseech thee, on these our American States, who have fled to thee from the rod of the oppressor and thrown themselves on Thy gracious protection, desiring to be henceforth dependent only on Thee, to Thee have they appealed for the righteousness of their cause; to Thee do they now look up for that countenance and support, which Thou alone canst give; take them, therefore, Heavenly Father, under Thy nurturing care; give them wisdom in Council and valor in the field; defeat the malicious designs of our cruel adversaries; convince them of the unrighteousness of their Cause and if they persist in their sanguinary purposes, of own unerring justice, sounding in their hearts, constrain them to drop the weapons of war from their unnerved bands in the day of battle!

Be Thou present, O God of wisdom, and direct the councils of this honorable assembly; enable them to settle things on the best and surest foundation. That the scene of blood may be speedily closed; that order, harmony and peace may be effectually restored, and truth and justice, religion and piety, prevail and flourish amongst The people. Preserve the health of their bodies and vigor of their minds; shower down on them and the millions they here represent, such temporal blessings as Thou seest expedient for them in this world and crown them with everlasting glory in the world to come.

All this we ask In the name and through the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son and our Savior. Amen"

[AKS\/\/ulfe]

Batton down the hatches, secure the unsecured and hold on tight. Thars rough seas ahead.
-SW

[Seeker]

The 10 commandments

[Chairboy]

Perhaps I suffer from a failure of imagination, but I fail to see how a christian government can adequetly represent my secular rights.

Our predictive models are shaped by knowledge of the extremes.  The large scale Coriolis force of a weather pattern can most clearly be seen in the fierce action of a hurricane.  As an immediate correlary, the characteristics of a moderate religious government can be more clearly seen in institutions such as the Taliban, Iran, and the Crusades.

The weather pattern (like the moderate religious government) may (and probably will) not flare into the destructive fury of a hurricane, but the same large scale characteristics will be evident.

As an atheist in our society, I am concerned that my christian neighbors will enjoy a position of more privilege in the years to come, and that such privilege will not be based on merit, but on a shared belief structure.

[GtoRA2]

Chair,
 What one of the ten comandments is bad?

 I am not a christian, but I can see most of our current laws are based on "christian morals"

 Why is that bad as long as it is not taken any further? You do not think have a christian government now do you?

[gollum]

Well put Chairboy. I agree completely.

[Chairboy]

Originally posted by GtoRA2
Why is that bad as long as it is not taken any further? You do not think have a christian government now do you?

I fear that I do not share your faith that it will not be taken any further.  

All of these large scale changes start small.  It's akin to boiling a frog.  Wisdom dictates that throwing a frog into boiling water might not be succesful, because the frog might jump out.  But if instead you put the frog in cold water and slowly increase the temperature, it will expire before realizing the gradual change.

The anti-gun crowd uses the same technique.  They make small, 'reasonable' changes to the laws here and there, but their stated purpose is to remove every firearm from the hands of private citizens.  Whether or not you agree with those goals, you should be able to see the method being used.

If you know, or suspect, that the long term goals of an organization will impact you adversely, isn't it your duty to stand fast?  It's not long before an inch here and an inch there add up to miles.

[midnight Target]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion

Can't play favorites.

[GtoRA2]

Is someone trying to sneak in some god laws now that I do not know about?

I all see is the fights to remove silly **** like the 10 comandments statue?

[Engine]

Originally posted by GtoRA2
Chair,
 What one of the ten comandments is bad?

I'll damn well covet whichevers neighbor's wife I like, thanks.  And there's one about false idols too, isn't there?  I'll worship whichever false idol I like, thank you very much.

Just sayin.

[Seagoon]

Chairboy,

You've exactly flipped the situation and the issue. First off, we aren't talking about moving from a anti-theistic to a theistic society, the situation, as even the quote I gave is exactly the opposite - we are moving from being what President John Adams called "a moral and religious" people to an explicitly "anti-moral and irreligious" nation.

The problem with that, apart from the fact that our current society can't survive the transition (again to quote Adams: "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other") is that it also means that the rights of Christians are being eroded and ultimately eliminated. This isn't about establishing a theocracy, or recognizing and establishing one denomination over others - both the US Constitution, and for that matter even the confession of faith of my denomination rule that out*. We are getting to the point where any kind of Christian speech in the public square is legally prevented, while specifically anti-religious, irreligious, or pornographic speech is protected. Most of us forsee a day approaching when merely preaching what Romans 1:18-32 says about "alternate lifestyles" will be termed as illegal hate-speech in this country as it already is in many European nations. From upholding Religion and Piety, we have come to the point where there is a defacto legal jihad being waged against them.

- SEAGOON

*From the Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 23.3 (American Revision, 1788) - "Civil magistrates may not assume to themselves the administration of the Word and sacraments; or the power of the keys of the kingdom of heaven; or, in the least, interfere in matters of faith.  Yet, as nursing fathers, it is the duty of civil magistrates to protect the church of our common Lord, without giving the preference to any denomination of Christians above the rest, in such a manner that all ecclesiastical persons whatever shall enjoy the full, free, and unquestioned liberty of discharging every part of their sacred functions, without violence or danger. And, as Jesus Christ hath appointed a regular government and discipline in his church, no law of any commonwealth should interfere with, let, or hinder, the due exercise thereof, among the voluntary members of any denomination of Christians, according to their own profession and belief. It is the duty of civil magistrates to protect the person and good name of all their people, in such an effectual manner as that no person be suffered, either upon pretense of religion or of infidelity, to offer any indignity, violence, abuse, or injury to any other person whatsoever: and to take order, that all religious and ecclesiastical assemblies be held without molestation or disturbance."

[Seagoon]

Originally posted by Engine
I'll damn well covet whichevers neighbor's wife I like, thanks.

Engine,

And I get to deal on an almost weekly basis with the wreckage that coveting produces, which is of course especially fun when it involves children whose homes have just been effectively nuked. That is I get to deal with them if both parties involved are still breathing after the consequences work themselves out... Funny how breaking the 10th seems to lead so often to breaking the 6th commandment eh?*  For military families like ours, its even more fun, because of the added pressures.

But still growing up displaced without a dad in a broken home is just a small price we will have to pay in order to advance our more perfect, covetous, and enlightened order, eh?

Just Sayin...

* (10th coveting, 6th murder)

[Seagoon]

Engine

Sorry, I didn't mean to get mad and sarcastic in the above, wasn't exactly a sanctified way of expressing myself. Just a visceral reaction probably due to the fact that in the past year I've had to do a lot of pastoral work/counseling dealing with one murder and several horrible break-ups directly related to adultery.

Again, my bad. Please forgive me.

- SEAGOON

[Engine]

S'ok Seagoon, I was being flippant anyway.

I do realize that affairs can have disastrous consequences, but I still don't believe it's the government's place to intervene.  What can they do, anyway, force someone to forgive their cheating spouse?  Force them to stay together in a dead relationship?  

I was trying to point out to GtoRA2 that while some of the commandments, like murder, should be illegal, there are some the government has no right to enforce, i.e. false idols.

[SOB]

I don't see things swinging too far one way or the other any time in the near future.  I don't think the government will get too religiously whacko, and I certainly don't think they'll interfere with what churches do under their roofs (ya know, provided they aren't sacrificing virgin albinos and stuff).

I wouldn't mind seeing the tax-exempt status for churches go away though, unless they conform to the rules governing other non-profit organizations.