Author Topic: Arrest mistake  (Read 5419 times)

Offline SOB

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Arrest mistake
« Reply #105 on: March 06, 2005, 03:06:37 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Curval
lol  

Freedom.

It's OK to be envious, that's normal.  Or was there was some other, more pathetic reason you felt the need to delve into the subject?
Three Times One Minus One.  Dayum!

Offline -tronski-

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Arrest mistake
« Reply #106 on: March 06, 2005, 06:47:34 AM »
In Aus an arrest can be as little as being told your under arrest and a hand being placed upon you (unless you submit) ie. If you feel your freedom has been restricted, that constitutes an arrest being made. Of course the real problem is that you must have a justification to make that arrest (which you must also acknowledge at the time). You can be arrested if the officer has a reasonable suspicion that you are about to commit a crime at night, are committing a crime or have recently committed a crime

If your not a police officer, a similar warning about right to remain silent, and an acknowledgement that the police have been called is required...and until then you have a duty of care (that nothing untoward happens to them).

After you have been arrested NSW (the state where I live) police have up to four hours to investigate you and then you must be either charged or released.


Quote
Originally posted by TweetyBird


Not anymore, rest assured.

And to be serious, it wasn't just "anyone" calling them.


Quote
Originally posted by TweetyBird

I just wonder how they would've handled it if my nephew wasn't "connected."



To be honest, this sounds like your real problem with the whole thing...not the "legal process"

 Tronsky
God created Arrakis to train the faithful

Offline Martlet

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Arrest mistake
« Reply #107 on: March 06, 2005, 07:24:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by TweetyBird
First off

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=384&invol=436

That is the Miranda decision

Second, certain constitutional rights spelled out in Miranda do not have to be stated to be in place, e.g., the right to council, indigent or not, questioned or not. Just because you arrest someone for a blatant crime that requires no investigation or interview from the suspect, does not mean he has no right to council. Mirandize or not - the constitutional rights spelled out in Miranda v Arizona exist.

>>Detention is not arrest. Even witnesses can be detained and they certainly are not under arrest.
<<

THAT is entirely up to a judge (or even jury) to decide. It is not black and white. Sometimes a detainment IS an arrest as has been proven in civil suits.

>>Telling people that detention is totally voluntary and that they can leave when detained by a law enforcement officer is incorrect.<<

I said detention is cooperative. I said a person can force the issue by walking away in which case they must either be arrested or let go. In cases where detention is being used to coerce a person into self incrimination, the smartest course is to force arrest (i.e., arrest me now or I AM LEAVING). It is much better to deal with detectives, DA's and your lawyer than it is a police officer who expertise is not law, but law enforcement.


That's not true at all, as has been shown.

It IS black and white.  It also goes so far to make avoiding detention a crime in some states.

Your "connections" aren't very good.

Quote

State of TEXAS
§ 38.04. EVADING ARREST OR DETENTION. (a) A person
commits an offense if he intentionally flees from a person he knows
is a peace officer attempting lawfully to arrest or detain him.

Offline Rolex

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Arrest mistake
« Reply #108 on: March 06, 2005, 07:30:49 AM »
Just a diversionary story about life outside the US until everyone gets back to arguing:

In Japan, the police can hold you in jail for questioning without charging you for... (are you ready?)







27 days.

Then they have to get a judge to sign off on a second 27-day interrogation period, before placing any charges. Here's an interesting story about being a foreigner:

A foreigner got a little tired of his neighbor's dog barking continuously all night long, every night, so he stopped at the house on the way back home from work and knocked on the door. He asked the middle-aged man if the dog was hungry or ill since he would pay to send it to a vet. The guy's teenage son walked around behind the foreigner and sucker punched him from behind. The foreigner turned around and him hit.

The police carted him off to jail for questioning. Of course the teenager didn't go to jail because, well, he was Japanese. The police interrogate people for 10 -12 hours per day in shifts until they sign a confession. If you don't sign a confession, you stay in jail and get convicted. He eventually signed a confession and paid apology money to avoid a long prison sentence.

Japan has a 99.5+% conviction rate. If you don't plead quilty, your sentence is harsh. If you plead guilty, your sentence is harsh, but a little shorter.

If you are a white-collar criminal, confession and a tearful apology will get you convicted, but your sentence will be suspended - always. Well, not always. I think 2 or 3 guys have been sentenced to a few months prison in the last 3 years for bribery or stealing a billion yen.

The great thing is, you usually don't have to pay back the money! What a country.

Traffic accidents are great. The police show up and after reams and reams of paperwork, everyone shares guilt in all accidents. No one is a harmless victim. If you're sitting at a red light and someone rams into the back of you, you are 20% at fault for having bad karma. Oh... and no day in court needed for these types of things. The police decide who pays how much on the spot. Cuts down on pesky trials.

In the days before the war, the police were the yakuza and the yakuza were the police. It would be hard to categorize the relationship as 'unfriendly' even now.


Small time thugs have a weekly quota of cash they have to give to the local yakuza boss. A favorite little con is the fake traffic accident con. Two little thugs will drive next to some drunk, hapless guy then stop and claim he kicked their tire. The police cart him off to jail until he confesses and agrees to pay the equivalent of $2,000 - $5,000 (depending on how much he looks like he can cough up) as an apology. They go the local ATM machine, or he agrees to pay it in installments. If he doesn't pay, the police come around his house to collect. The police make a cut and the thugs can pay the boss.

Nothing like a little entrepreneurial spirit to keep currency circulating.

Okay, back to the arguing...
« Last Edit: March 06, 2005, 07:35:20 AM by Rolex »

Offline Lazerus

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Arrest mistake
« Reply #109 on: March 06, 2005, 07:59:51 AM »
I think tweety is saying that you can walk away from a situation where you are being detained, thereby forcing the agent to arrest you or let you go. If you continue to attempt to leave after being told that you are under arrest you are guilty of resisting arrest.

Just my understanding of it though, I could be wrong, for the ump-teenth time today.

Offline Martlet

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Arrest mistake
« Reply #110 on: March 06, 2005, 08:02:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Lazerus
I think tweety is saying that you can walk away from a situation where you are being detained, thereby forcing the agent to arrest you or let you go. If you continue to attempt to leave after being told that you are under arrest you are guilty of resisting arrest.

Just my understanding of it though, I could be wrong, for the ump-teenth time today.


So he's saying that if you are being detained, commit a crime?

His "connections" must be pleased.

Offline Lazerus

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Arrest mistake
« Reply #111 on: March 06, 2005, 08:27:19 AM »
Well, I didn't convey that well enough I guess. It's my understanding that you are not commiting a crime by walking away from an officer if you haven't been placed under arrest.

You can force the arrest by attempting to leave a situation where you are being detained. They either arrest you or let you go.

If you are handcuffed, or locked in the back seat of a cruiser, you are for all intents and purposes under arrest in my book. Once your liberty has been taken away, you are arrested.


Just my take on it though.


"Connections" rarely turn out to be as good as you think they are, or others make them out to be. Especially when they are publicised.

Offline Martlet

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Arrest mistake
« Reply #112 on: March 06, 2005, 08:28:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Lazerus
Well, I didn't convey that well enough I guess. It's my understanding that you are not commiting a crime by walking away from an officer if you haven't been placed under arrest.

You can force the arrest by attempting to leave a situation where you are being detained. They either arrest you or let you go.

If you are handcuffed, or locked in the back seat of a cruiser, you are for all intents and purposes under arrest in my book. Once your liberty has been taken away, you are arrested.


Just my take on it though.


"Connections" rarely turn out to be as good as you think they are, or others make them out to be. Especially when they are publicised.


In most states the officer may legally detain you for investigative purposes.

Offline Lazerus

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Arrest mistake
« Reply #113 on: March 06, 2005, 08:33:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Lazerus
Once your liberty has been taken away, you are arrested.
 



I understand what you're saying, it's just that I think that you are essentialy under arrest in that situation too. You no longer have freedom. You are detained. You are under arrest.

Legalese might not agree with it, but the essence of the definition is fulfilled.


Again, just my take on it.

Offline Martlet

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Arrest mistake
« Reply #114 on: March 06, 2005, 08:37:11 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Lazerus
I understand what you're saying, it's just that I think that you are essentialy under arrest in that situation too. You no longer have freedom. You are detained. You are under arrest.

Legalese might not agree with it, but the essence of the definition is fulfilled.


Again, just my take on it.


Well, you can call it anything you'd like.  "nuts in a sling", "purple elephant", "Tweety's connections not working out",

but since we're discussing "legalese", you aren't arrested.

Offline Lazerus

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Arrest mistake
« Reply #115 on: March 06, 2005, 08:55:32 AM »
Well, in my legalese, detained is the same as arrested. If I'm not free to move along, I consider myself under arrest.


Originally posted by Lazerus
Quote
Once your liberty has been taken away, you are arrested.



I still stand by that. It is logically sound, and I've seen it argued in court and won.

As for the original argument, all I can say is New Orleans police have a reputation for a reason. But then again, it's been a decade since I've known anyone that had any first hand experience with them.



Offline Martlet

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Arrest mistake
« Reply #116 on: March 06, 2005, 08:57:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Lazerus
Well, in my legalese, detained is the same as arrested. If I'm not free to move along, I consider myself under arrest.


Originally posted by Lazerus



I still stand by that. It is logically sound, and I've seen it argued in court and won.

As for the original argument, all I can say is New Orleans police have a reputation for a reason. But then again, it's been a decade since I've known anyone that had any first hand experience with them.


Could you point to a few examples of where a person who has been detained for investigation, and the detainment followed the laws of that state, has successfully argued in court that he was arressted?

Offline Lazerus

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Arrest mistake
« Reply #117 on: March 06, 2005, 09:05:39 AM »
Specifically, no. I'm not in the legal profession and don't want to do the research to find the case to post for you.

I can tell you what I saw in court though.


No time to type it out now. I'll post it later this afternoon.



wife/work calling

Offline Martlet

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Arrest mistake
« Reply #118 on: March 06, 2005, 09:09:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Lazerus
Specifically, no. I'm not in the legal profession and don't want to do the research to find the case to post for you.

I can tell you what I saw in court though.


No time to type it out now. I'll post it later this afternoon.



wife/work calling


Uh huh.  :rolleyes:

Offline Maverick

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Arrest mistake
« Reply #119 on: March 06, 2005, 11:09:16 AM »
Tweety,

Last post in repsonse to you. You continue to read into what I stated what was neither implied or inferred. Do not attempt to place words in my mouth.

I simply told you that Miranda is NOT an integral part of being arrested. It is important certainly but only applies when the suspect decides to exercise his / her miranda rights OR when the law enforcement personel wish to question the suspect. (specifically the right against self incrimination). An arrest can be affected without any miranda warning being given simply by not asking the arrestee any questions relating to the offense in question. If you don't question him you do not have to mirandize him / her. Simple. That was all I said about it.

If the suspect requests representation that is his right. The arresting officer does not have to provide representaion to the arrestee and can certainly continue the arrest process without questioning the arrestee. The arrestee can call from jail if incarcerated. If the arrestee is given a field release (criminal citation) they can call from wherever they want once they sign the pronise to appear in court. Last time. I repeat,  earlier I did not say the arrestee was not entitled to representation.

As to the detention situation that has been fully explained to you. The fact that a detention sometimes does result in an arrest does not in any way diminish the fact that a person can be detained, without their cooperation, and not be under arrest. If you refuse to see that, it's your problem, not mine.

Finally as to the 2 questions I asked you, I find it simply amazing you cannot admit what state (or even country for that matter) you are talking about.

I already know you are not an attorney, even a bad one, simply from the posts you have made here.

IMO you achieved what you wanted by starting the thread. You got attention by posting the alleged situation you first listed and stroked your ego by implying you were somehow important (connected) to get your nephew released from custody. I won't pamper your ego further in this thread. Feel free to continue to insult my service as you did earlier and you can even have the last word.  :rolleyes:
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