Originally posted by Steve
It is my understanding that, at least in AZ, there is adequate health care available for the population, less illegals. There goes the overload problem.
Here's one of our fundamental differences. Its my understanding there isn't adequate health care available for all citizens, although I certainly agree its not desirable to increase the burden on the system by allowing abuse - whether that abuse is being done by citizens OR illegal aliens.
I realize this could mean we differ as to what's "adequate". I'm drawing partly upon my own experience as well as on anecdotal information. My own experience, which included being self-employed for the last 2 decades of the prior millenium, was that the current system singles out individual/independent consumers and assigns them the very highest pricing (in a system where prices are all pretty high).
The result is that if you are either 1) self-employed or 2) employed without group health insurance participation then you must be prepared to pay through the nose for health care.
Now, think about that for just a minute. Let's not think in terms of government-run health care (I don't want that either, give me a little credit here, we both seem to be libertarians). But let's realize that while there's a "sweet spot" in the employment market where employers tend to start adding group participation to the compensation package, MANY people who are looking at entry level employment are given no opportunity by prospective employers to participate. Face it, do the math - if you're making the kind of money those jobs pay, you can barely afford the basics (housing, food, clothes) and probably have little left over. Get sick = crisis. You ain't got the cash to pay the doctor, even if you're willing to.
So, we end up with a large group of people who are doing as we WANT them to (working to pay their own way) yet if they get sick they're screwed - not enough money to do what they'd like to do, which is pay for their own health care.
Currently, the only safety net our system has in place is for them to enter the welfare system. (Yes I know I'm ignoring the various private charitable organizations that do provide services here, but they mainly address catastrophic illness associated with research. I'm focusing on the routine here.) I'm sure we agree the welfare system (Medicare/Medicaid, state/county/municipal indigent care, government-forced private providers) is NOT how we want to address this issue, right?
Originally posted by Steve
This smacks of a govt run health care program. Govt run healthcare fails miserably. Canada is an example. Since I want less Govt control/intrusion, I'll disagree here.
OK. Me too.
But if I'm right above (that there IS a problem that needs solution) then where do we go? It isn't fixing itself.
I don't have a ready answer. My gut instinct points me in this direction:
1) Require that employers make group health care packages part of the compensation for every employee, period. Yes, it'll add to the cost of doing business. But, it'll start shifting the cost of the health care problem into the private sector (where it belongs, right?)
2) Devise some way to make those packages affordable to small businesses. We don't want Item #1 to drive small entrepreneurs from the US business landscape, but right now they are at a huge disadvantage when trying to acquire coverage for themselves and their employee groups.
3) (Possible addition, I dunno, open to debate on this one) MAYBE a "safety net" whereby people who can be gainfully employed but find themselves in need of health care without the money on hand or plan to pay for it can get low-cost loans? (Let's discuss things like how to administer that, how to secure their payment, etc in another thread, this is a concept thing I'm not even sure is necessary but believe we should discuss).
How do we do all this? Man, I wish I knew specific answers. But surely there's way. I believe the solution should be private-sector driven, as I'm sure you do.
But perhaps we might consider mandating some requirements for insurance providers, to make sure that they don't cherry-pick? Maybe the right concept is "If you want to make a profit in the USA selling health care insurance, you have to make realistic services available to all consumers."
Make people pay, but make sure they can get the right deal is where I'm coming from.
I dunno, man. I'm like you. I don't want the government involved unless its the only way. I wanna fix it so that yes people pay their own way but also so that we're sure they all have a chance to do so.
Suggestions?
Originally posted by Steve
I am going to respond as if you are addressing the whole of the illegal alien problem and not just their burden on the healthcare system.
~snip~
I want all of these people deported, and our borders sealed to illegal immigration.
Steve I ain't a bleeding heart idiot. I don't want malefactors/criminals/etc in my community, either. I'm a gun-toting hard-nosed redneck who believes thieves and thugs don't need to breathe air. Trust me on this. I also resent the hell out of freeloaders. So please disabuse yourself of the notion I want what we have now to continue, or get worse. I want illegal immigration stopped, period, too.
The difference I'm sensing between you and I is that where I'm intimately familiar with the culture of the people you're talking about (Latino immigrants as a whole, not just the illegals and criminals). I speak their language, I interact with them. My life experience teaches me that on the whole, we're talking about a group of people who are hardworking, dedicated to family, honest and honorable, and who want nothing more than what you and I want - a chance to be part of our "American Dream". They don't want to freeload. They want to participate, contribute, and help the thing grow.
The point is they're the kind of folks I want for neighbors. OK? And, I suspect that if your level of understanding of them was as deep as mine, you'd agree. Maybe you do, if I'm wrong about you I apologize.
So, where does this leave us? I'm F_R_E_A_K_E_D__O_U_T by the implications of that catch phrase "seal our borders". That creates images in my mind that are really ugly. It smacks of things like "Prohibition", "War On Drugs", "Patriot Act", "Papers, Please", etc in my mind. I'm a freedom-lover. To hell with that concept.
I'm saying we can solve the problem by working on what causes it. You've cited the cause. Let's fix it.
There shouldn't be any "under the table" employment available, period. Anybody who wants to, tries to, DOES engage in employing people illegally should be put under the jailhouse, man. They are both exploiting unfortunate and desperate people (the ONLY ones who'd accept these employment offers, I think we agree) AND they are cheating the rest of us who do work within the systen legally by shifting their burden to us.
Think. If you want to employ the services of another human, do it right and pay for it legally. Anything less is unacceptable.
OR_GO_TO_JAIL.
We've eliminated slavery and indentured servitude, lets fix this too.
If we instituted that, don't you think it would go a long way toward eliminating the kind of jobs that you complain illegals seek in your community?
It would also create a new pool of jobs that are compensated for properly (some of that work is gonna get done, its just a price negotiation now).
Then, if we get there, we can discuss how to allow foreign nationals a way to legally seek the jobs that legal residents can't/won't/don't fill.
And we end up with a lot more people on the books, in the system, paying their own way.
Eye on the ball, man, eye on the ball. Eliminate the REASONS our systems are being abused and the OPPORTUNITIES for people to employ others in ways that encourage that and we're a lot better off.
culero
