109's were really that bad?!!!

[DamnedRen]

Originally posted by Oldman731
Very wrong.

You can read the summaries here:

http://www.anesi.com/ussbs02.htm (ETO)

http://www.anesi.com/ussbs01.htm (PTO)

It would behoove people (not just you, Ren!) to check out these primary sources before they drew conclusions on the effectiveness of strategic bombing in WWII.

- oldman

Please reread my post. The summary came out in the '70's not 1945. That was propaganda. Would you want to tell all the folks back home that all those missions did little?

I also mentioned the Brits came out with theirs ahead of the US's. And as I said, anything they hit on their night missions that landed within 5 miles of the target was considered a good hit.

And yes the Germans had a maximum of 20 minutes over England. They also have amphibian planes with big red/white X's on them parked in the English Channel. They also had bouys floating around with survival gear it them along with E-Boats ready to pick up downed flyers. I think the number of planes per mission that ditched was around 20 or so.

It's also common knowledge the English High Command said shoot any amphib you see on the water in the Channel. The standard rule of thumb for  chutes was if they were ovver English territory,leave em be. If they were over the English Channel or Europe, shoot em down. Some did, some didn't. It had to do with did you want that guy coming back at you in the sky again?

[DamnedRen]

Originally posted by Mitchell
What do you think caused the shortage?

Certainly not the bombers over northern Europe.

[DamnedRen]

Originally posted by BlauK
Naah... P-51 was an best airplane. That is why America won World War II. That is well known facts in lots books.

Well, it's were sure a whole lot better than in here. LOL

But hey, its a game. Neuter the thing. There's other planes out there to fly. I'm getting to like the LA7.



Ren
__________
DAG

[plank]

I remember seeing something on the military channel recently about an allied bombing of a ball-bearing factory that nearly crippled the lufftwaffe. I can't recall the date that this occured but I do remember them stating that if there had been a follow-up raid, it would have been catostrophic.

Of course, this was a television program and prone to error, I'm sure. I'm at work now or I'd do some more research on it.

[Panzzer]

Try the search button sometime, there's plenty of threads on the 109 in the 'Aircraft and vehicles' -forum... Both yay's and nay's are well represented there.

And now, a 109-link

[wetrat]

Goering lost the war in the air, not the 109. Not to mention the fact that 109 production didn't reach its peak until the war was irretrievably lost.

[DamnedRen]

Originally posted by wetrat
Goering lost the war in the air, not the 109.

True but the 109 didn't rule the skys over England or Europe by D-Day either.

Actually they didn't have very many decent pilots left by then. The Noob's were cannon fodder.

[wetrat]

Originally posted by DamnedRen
True but the 109 didn't rule the skys over England or Europe by D-Day either.

Actually they didn't have very many decent pilots left by then. The Noob's were cannon fodder.

Air supremacy was lost by the Germans long before D-day. Late in the war there was a shortage of qualified pilots, not aircraft.

[mechanic]

You're all wrong!


Spitfires, Hurricanes, huge unquestioned courage, and of course the huge help of our trusted allies in America.


oh, the P-51 was a total POS untill they put a spitfire engine in it, just remember that.

If ever a truly awesome plane came from America, it was either the P38, P47 or the Corsair.

[JB88]

Originally posted by DamnedRen


It's nice to know we have a choice of birds to fly in AH2. Imagine if you hadda fly just German planes all the time. You'd be on the losing end of the war...even in the game.

Ren
_______
DAG

some of us would respectfully beg to differ.

[wetrat]

approximate monthly 109 production figures, quoted from "The First and The Last" -A. Galland:

early 1940: ~125

late 1940-1941: +375

early 1942: ~250

1943: ~1000

autumn 1944: ~2500/mo



The Germans had long lost air supremacy (and as a result, many outstanding pilots) by the time production reached its peak. According to Erich Hartmann, the vast majority of new pilots assigned to JG52 in the latter years of the war had, on average, 80 hours total flying time. What good is a greenhorn in a shiny new 109 when air supremacy is already lost?

[wetrat]

Originally posted by mechanic
If ever a truly awesome plane came from America, it was either the P38, P47 or the Corsair.

Funny, that... every account of the LW aces I've read have mentioned the Mustang as something to be feared, not 47's or the flying monstrosity (p38).

[Simaril]

Originally posted by DamnedRen
Actually it did nothing to stop the advancement of German technology. They were still building/experimenting with improved planes until the end of the war. The German's committing fighters did nothing to lessen the inability of bombers to accurately hitting anything. In fact the Germans made more fighters near the end of the war than in the early years. What stopped the fighters was a lack of fighters and fuel. The factories were all spread out and never really damaged. The Germans went so far as to make synthetic fuel.

....snip.....

What won the war in the ETO was ground forces taking away land and capturing troops. The Atlantic wall fell immediately on D-Day. What stopped the troops from an end run was the hedgerows. No one ever had planned for them until some Sgt. figured out they needed to put plow blades on the tanks and off they went to the races.

German research may have been individually impressive, but what killed it was the utter lack of prioritizing and integration. Dictatorial control caused resources to be squandered on epochal technologies like the V2, when streamlined production of conventional weapons would have had a better impact. Would the invasion ports have been safe if thousands of cheap, simple V1s with 1000kg payloads had been thrown at them day and night?

The western strategic bombing campaign has been thrashed over ad nauseum, but naysayers miss 2 important facts:
1) Just as the Ardennes offensive ("Battle of the Bulge") pulled German armor out of strong defensive positions and ultimately made it EASIER to win the ground war, the strategic bombing campaign REQUIRED the dictator to aggressively respond with his scarce resources, allowing the defending fighters to decimate both the Axis hardware and especially the pilot supply. Read the book JG 26, based on primary German sources and interviews, and then try to say that the bombing campaign failed to destroy the fighter arm.....
2) The fact that German industrial output was higher near the end of the war than at the beginning does NOT mean that the campaign was a failure; comparison should properly be made at the unmeasurable (but certainly far higher) output that would have been present had the bombing not occurred.



Lastly, the breakout from Normandy depended on tactical interdiction by Allied Jabos and even strategic bombers. This was possible ONLY because the luftwaffe had been chewed up by years of strategic interceptions.

[mechanic]

Originally posted by wetrat
Funny, that... every account of the LW aces I've read have mentioned the Mustang as something to be feared, not 47's or the flying monstrosity (p38).

I told you, the mustang wasnt even good at its intended ground attack role untill we lent you muppets some engines

[VWE]

Imagine if you hadda fly just German planes all the time. You'd be on the losing end of the war...even in the game.

I fly only axis in the CT, I'd be more than happy to show you what a 109 is capable of Ren...