Author Topic: 4 x hispano spitfire?  (Read 1924 times)

Offline paulobrien6969

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4 x hispano spitfire?
« on: March 12, 2005, 07:41:18 AM »
was a 4x hispano spit ever made in the war years?
i tried to research it
i was thinking of a spit that was really worth perking as apposed to the mk 14,which should be perked but nowhere near as high as it is..
i found this variant:

 Mk. VC: Universal wing with various gun
   configurations, additional racks for 250 lb.
   (113 kg.) bombs on wings.
   Production: 2,447

could one of those configurations be 4x hispanos?
i also found this but its just post war:


Model 21: Post-war. Redesigned aircraft with different structure and shape. 2,050 hp Griffon 65 or 85, four 20mm cannon and rack for 1,000 lb. (454 kg) bombs.
Production: 300

Offline mojo55

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4 x hispano spitfire?
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2005, 08:14:10 AM »
Hurricain IIC ..?

Offline SlapShot

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4 x hispano spitfire?
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2005, 08:43:20 AM »
This is from another thread that asked the same question.

Read this thread for more info ...

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=139277&highlight=spitfire+20mm+four

Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
For the third time today :)  4 cannon Spitfire Vcs were NOT common.  The only place I can find any evidence of them being used in combat is with 2 Squadron SAAF in Italy as a ground attack aircraft. These were not Air to Air Spits.  They had the Vokes filter under the nose, as well as a 500 pounder slung under the fuselage to go with the 4 20mm.  They WOULD NOT have been very good performers due to the weight and drag penalties from the cannon and tropical filter.


There are other well known photos of 4 cannon Spitfire Vc on the USS Wasp where they launched from to reinforce Malta.

Once on Malta they had two of the cannon removed.  Again the weight penalty really hindered climb, agility and overall performance.  Two cannon were enough for the job as they figured if they couldn't kill it with two cannon they weren't going to hit it with 4.

Images from top to bottom.  A 4 cannon Spitfire Vc Trop on the USS Wasp.

One of these Wasp launched Spitfire Vc after getting to Malta and having the two inboard cannon removed.

Image of 2 SAAF Spitfire Vc in the ground attack role.

There is no evidence I've ever seen to indicate 4 cannon Spits operated over France, North Africa or elsewhere beyond those 2 SAAF Spits in Italy.

Dan/Slack


« Last Edit: March 12, 2005, 08:50:19 AM by SlapShot »
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Offline culero

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4 x hispano spitfire?
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2005, 08:48:29 AM »
Trust me on this, when Guppy35/Slack has spoken relative to Spitfires, the subject has been covered ~GGG~

Skuzzy, might as well lock this one, its done ;)

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Offline paulobrien6969

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4 x hispano spitfire?
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2005, 08:58:49 AM »
lol well thanks for the replys
was just wondering this this morning while discussing perk planes with some1.
should have known someone else would hae thought of it


Offline Morpheus

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4 x hispano spitfire?
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2005, 11:11:33 AM »
why would he lock it and what would be accomplished in doing such a thing?
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Offline Edbert1

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4 x hispano spitfire?
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2005, 12:12:35 PM »
We could also get the Spit MkIIB, basically a MkI with 4@.303 and 2@20mm. It seems to me that the FM modeling would be quite minimal, and we already have the guns modeled in the MkV. But what do I know, I don't coad?

Offline Guppy35

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4 x hispano spitfire?
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2005, 12:19:11 PM »
For me it all comes down to could they vs did they use the 4 20mm.

The Spit with the Universal wing could have carried 4 cannon, but it didn't outside of launching from Wasp to Malta, where two of the cannon were removed to save weight, and improve performance and the 2 SAAF Spit Vcs that were not encountering enemy E/A but were hitting ground targets.

There is a picture of a Mark IX with 4 cannon, but it is one used for testing.  There is an image of a Spit VIII with extended wingtips and 4 cannon used by an RAAF squadron CO, but it was a single aircraft to chase high alt recce Dinah's, not a squadron wide application of the 4 cannon.

There were also problems with heating the 4 cannon which is why it was only ever seen in the MTO with 2 SAAF and that single Spit VIII in the Pacific.

The big issue from a pilot's perspective was the performance penalty.  The Malta guys beyond losing two of the cannon, often took out two or both sets of 303s to lose the weight and help the climb rate and performance.

They figured if they could hit it with 2 cannon they could do the job.

The Spit 21 had a completely redesigned wing that carried 4 cannon as standard.  It did see operational use before the end of the war with 91 Squadron. They were flying sweeps over the Hook of Holland etc from about March 45 on.  They lost two to ack and were credited with sinking a 2 man sub.  No air to air that I'm aware of.

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Offline mechanic

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4 x hispano spitfire?
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2005, 12:53:41 PM »
dont care historically but i want that loadout.
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Offline Kev367th

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4 x hispano spitfire?
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2005, 01:07:54 PM »
If it was ever to appear in AH2, would really only be appropriate on the Spit 5.
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Offline paulobrien6969

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4 x hispano spitfire?
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2005, 02:43:27 PM »
well if the number made is a problem with it entering ah then just look at the la7 and 262 etc
i dont know the exact number of these lowely produced planes are ,so tell me if im wrong..
i would sacrafice some speed and maneuverablility for that extra gun lay out
and as for anyone saying why not just use another quad cannon plane, well simple,none of them handle like a spit...

Offline hubsonfire

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4 x hispano spitfire?
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2005, 03:22:48 PM »
If you want 4 hispanos and don't mind the decreased speed, fly a hurricane mkIIc. Its low speed handling is very much on par with the spit 5, but I believe you'll change your mind very quickly regarding the reduction in speed. anything that doesn't out turn the hurricane readily out runs it.
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Offline SpiveyCH

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4 x hispano spitfire?
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2005, 05:43:54 PM »
Supermarine Spitfire and Seafire

Mks I to 24 and Seafire I, III, XV, XVII and 45-47

Origin: Supermarine Aviation Works (Vickers) Ltd; also built by, Vickers-Armstrongs, Castle Bromwich, and Westland Aircraft; (Seafire) Cunliffe-Owen Aircraft and Westland.
Type: Single-seat fighter, fighter-bomber or reconnaissance; (Seafire) carrier-based fighter.
Engine: One Rolls-Royce Merlin or Griffon vee-12 liquid-cooled (see text)
Dimensions: Span 36ft 10in (11-23m), clipped, 32ft 2in, or, more often, 32ft 7in (9-93m), extended, 40ft 2in (12-24m); length 29ft 11in (9-12m), later, with two-stage engine, typically 31ft 3 1/2in (9-54m), Griffon engine, typically 32ft 8in (9-96m), final (eg Seafire 47) 34ft 4in (10-46m); height 11ft 5in (3-48m), with Griffon, typically 12ft 9in (3-89m).
Weights: Empty (Mk I) 4,810lb (2182kg); (IX) 5,610lg (2545kg); (XIV) 6,700lb (3040kg); (Sea.47) 7,625lb (3458kg); maximum loaded (I) 5,784lb (2624kg); (IX) 9,500lb (4310kg); (XIV) 10,280lb (4663kg); (Sea.47) 12,750lb (5784kg).
Performance: Maximum speed (I) 355-362mph (580km/h); (IX) 408mph (657km/h); (XIV) 448mph (721km/h); (Sea.47) 451mph (724km/h); initial climb (I) 2,530ft (770m)/min; (IX) 4,100ft (1250m)/min; (XIV) 4,580ft (1396m)/min; (Sea.47) 4,800ft (1463m)/min; range on internal fuel (I) 395 miles (637km); (IX) 434 miles (700km); (XIV) 460 miles (740km); (Sea.47) 405 miles (652km).
Armament: See "Development" text.
History: First flight (prototype) 5 March 1936; (production Mk I) July 1938; final delivery (Mk24) October 1947.
Users: (Wartime) Australia, Canada, Czechoslovakia, Egypt, France, italy (CB), Jugoslavia, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, South Africa, Soviet Union, Turkey, UK (RAF, RN), US (AAF).

Development: Possibly the most famous combat aircraft in history, the Spitfire was designed by the dying Reginald Mitchell to Specification F.37/34 using the new Rolls-Royce PV.12 engine later named Merlin. It was the first all-metal stressed-skin fighter to go into production in Britain. The following were main versions.
I initial version, 450 ordered in June 1936 with 1,030hp Merlin II, two-blade fixed-pitch propeller and four 0-303in Browning guns. Later MkIA with eight guns, bulged canopy and three-blade DH v-p propeller and Mk IB with two 20mm Hispano and four 0-303. Production: 1,566.
II Mk I built at Castle Bromwich with 1,175hp Merlin XII and Rotol propeller. Production: 750 IIA (eight 0-303), 170 IIB (two 20mm, four 0-303).
III Single experimental model; strengthened Mk I with many changes.
IV Confusing because Mk IV was first Griffon-engined, one built. Then unarmed Merlin photo-reconnaissance Mk IV delivered in quantity. Production: 229.
V Like PR.IV powered by 1,440hp Merlin 45, many detail changes, main fighter version 1941-42 in three forums: VA, eight 0-303; VB, two 20mm and four 0-303; VC "universial" wing with choice of guns plus two 250lb (113kg) bombs. All with centreline rack for 500lb (227kg) bomb or tank. Many with clipped wings and/or tropical filter under nose. Production: VA, 94; VB, 3,923; VC, 2,447.
VI High-altitude interim interceptor, 1,415hp Merlin 47, pressurised cockpit, two 20mm and four 0-303. Production: 100.
VII High-altitude, extended wing-tips, new 1,660hp Merlin 61 with two-stage supercharger (and symmetrical underwing radiators); retractable tailwheel, later broad and pointed rudder. Pressurised cockpit. Production: 140.
VIII Followed interim Mk IX, virtually unpressurised Mk VII in LF (low-altitude, clipped), F (standard) and HF (high-altitude, extended) versions. Production: 1,658.
IX Urgent version to counter Fw 190, quick lash-up of V with Merlin 61; again LF, F and HF versions, plus IXE with two 20mm and two 0-5in. Production: 5,665.
X Pressurised photo-reconnaissance. Merlin 77, whole leading edge forming fuel tank. Production: 16.
XI As X but unpressurised, 1,760hp Merlin 63A or 1,655hp Merlin 70. Mainstay of Photo Reconnaissance Unit 1943-45. Production: 471.
XIII Low-level reconnaissance, low-rated 1,620hp Merlin 32, four 0-303. Production: 16.
XIV First with two-stage Griffon, 2,050hp Mk 65 with deep symmetric radiators and fove-blade propeller, completely redesigned airframe with new fuselage, broad fin/rudder, inboard ailerons, retractable tailwheel. F.XIV, two 20mm and four 0-303; F.XIVE, two 20mm and two 0-5in; FR.XIVE, same guns, cut-down rear fuselage and teardrop hood, clipped wings. F.24 camera and extra fuel. Active in 1944, destroyed over 300 flying bombs. Production: 957.
XVI As Mk IX but 1,705hp Packard Merlin 266; LF.IXE, E-guns and clipped, many with teardrop hood, extra fuel. Production: 1,054.
XVIII Definitive wartime fighter derived from interim XIV, extra fuel, stronger, F and FR versions, some of latter even more fuel and tropical equipment. Production: 300.
XIX Final photo-reconnaissance, 2,050hp Griffon 65 and unpressurised, then Griffon 66 with pressure cabin and increased wing tankage; both option of deep slipper tank for 1,800 mile (2900km) range. Made last RAF Spitfire sortie, Malaya, 1 April 1954. Production 225.
21 Post-war, redeisgned aircraft with different structure and shape, 2,050hp Griffon 65 or 85, four 20mm and 1,000lg (454kg) bombs. Production: 122.
22 Bubble hood, 24-volt electrics, some with 2,375hp Griffon 65 and contraprop. Production: 278.
24 Redesigned tail, short-barrel cannon, zero-length rocket launchers. Production: 54. Total Spitfire production 20,334.
Spitfire IB Navalised Spitfire VB, usually 1,415hp low-rated Merlin 46. Fixed wings but hook and slinging points. Conversions: 166.
IIC Catapult spools, strengthened landing gear, 1,645hp Merlin 32 and four-blade propeller. Various sub0types, Universal wing. Production: 262 Supermarine, 110 Westland.
III Manual double-fold wing 1,585hp Merlin 55M, various versions. Production: 870 Westland, 350 Cunliffe-Owen.
XV (Later F.15) 1,850hp Griffon VI, four-blade, asymmetric radiators, cross between Seafire III and Spitfire XII. Production: 390.
XVII (F.17) Increased fuel, cut-down fuselage and bubble hood. Production: (cut by war's end): 232.
45 New aircraft entirely, corresponding to Spitfire 21; Griffon 61 (five-blade) or 85 (contraprop); fixed wing, four 20mm. Production: 50.
46 Bubble hood like Spitfire 22. Production: 24.
47 Navalised Spitfire 24, hydraulically folding wings, carb-air intake just behind propeller, increased fuel. Fought in Malaya and Korea. Production: 140. Total Seafires: 2,556.


*Few Extras*
-----Basically tougher and more powerful than the Mks I and II, the V was the standard version in production in 1941. More were built (6,464) than any other single mark. R6923 was one of many built as a Mk1 and converted to a VB. It went to the first user of this mark, 92 Sqn, in March 1941. Below about 15,000 feet it could hold its own, but the Fw 190 was so superior at altitude the the Spitfire IX had hurriedly to be produced, mating the two-stage Merlin with the Mk V airframe.

-----When the Mk IB and IIB appeared with two 20mm Hispanos the fact was obvious to German pilots from the long faired barrels and the blisters over the ammunition drums. They found the Mk IX, however, hard to tell from a Mk V at a distance, and from 1942 had to respect all Spitfires due to the Merlin 61.
SpiveyCH
The 364th C-HAWKS Fighter Group

Offline paulobrien6969

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4 x hispano spitfire?
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2005, 04:55:21 AM »
well basically im a spit freak and would like more variants
clipped wing would be one of them

Offline Mitchell

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4 x hispano spitfire?
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2005, 06:29:21 AM »
I would have no problem with quad 20mm if I didn't think that SPITs would start HOing as much as N1Ks or any other quad 20mm plane.

And if you use your plane right and get on there 6, 2 20mm and a couple machine guns will do the job just fine.