F6F vs Ki84 and P38s.

[214thCavalier]

I cannot recall being out turned by an F6F whilst flying an F4U-1, if i was having to pick from the 2 to engage the other i would pick the -1 everytime.
Of course i would also not try to enter a turn fight with an F6F whilst carrying 75% which is my default take off fuel loading.
But once the fuel load drops the fun starts.

[Redd]

Originally posted by 214thCavalier
I cannot recall being out turned by an F6F whilst flying an F4U-1, if i was having to pick from the 2 to engage the other i would pick the -1 everytime.
Of course i would also not try to enter a turn fight with an F6F whilst carrying 75% which is my default take off fuel loading.
But once the fuel load drops the fun starts.

Well, we did some testing of the 2 planes  in the TA and the Hellcat definitely has the upper hand in turnfight performance.

The -1  has a good instantaneous turn , which helps it hang in there for 1 turn , but after that the Hellcat holds all the cards.

Key factors were much better vertical performance , and  better sustained turn rate , even when horizontal.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Redd


Key factors were much better vertical performance , and  better sustained turn rate , even when horizontal.

Yep, the F4U-1 gets around a bit faster on a Co-E merge, but not enough to gain any worthwhile advantage. From there, the F6F gradually makes gains until he can get a shot. What really hurts the F4U is its poor climbing ability, you simply cannot get the nose up and sustain enough speed to match the F6F. By the way, the F4U had only 50% gas and would have been at a greater disadvantage with more fuel. In a sustained left turn, down on the water, the F6F slowly, but surely works inside. Turn right and the F4U-1's torque only makes it worse.

It was fun Redd.

My regards,

Widewing

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by Redd

Key factors were much better vertical performance , and  better sustained turn rate , even when horizontal.

Thanks for the test/observations to back it up Widewing / Redd

now if you wanted to look at them old dusty AH climb/speed charts for AH1.
even though they are for AH1, you can gather that the F6f-5 in AH2 still has the upperhand( climbrate/sustained turnrate) over the F4U-1 in AH2.

only significant factor for the F4U-1 is its speed advantage.

Cav, you are a handful to deal with in the F4U-1, so you are in they top 20% to 5 % of F4U-1 pilots, that is why you have no troubles with the lower 95% to 80% of flyers in the F6f-5.

A fun fight would be Cav in his hog vs Redd in his F6f-5, or Widewing in a hog vs Greebo, or maybe even me in the -1 hog vs Balsy.

you could change up the mix of pilots/planes any way you wanted to in these matchups I listed and it would come down basically to have the victory go to the guy who did not make a mistake!

[214thCavalier]

Perhaps the F4U-1 just suits me more than the F6.
And i used to be exclusively an F6F flyer.
Couple of points though.
Who fights a sustained turn fight ? not me for sure.
F6F any advantage it has in climb, does not bother me, along with the other 90% that climb better, because if your in the hit zone you cannot outclimb the bullets.

A certain style of fighting will beat the F4U-1 with the F6F on that i agree, but then only if the F4U-1 stays too long because it can at any time walk away at will.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by TequilaChaser
Cav, you are a handful to deal with in the F4U-1, so you are in they top 20% to 5 % of F4U-1 pilots, that is why you have no troubles with the lower 95% to 80% of flyers in the F6f-5.

A fun fight would be Cav in his hog vs Redd in his F6f-5, or Widewing in a hog vs Greebo, or maybe even me in the -1 hog vs Balsy.

you could change up the mix of pilots/planes any way you wanted to in these matchups I listed and it would come down basically to have the victory go to the guy who did not make a mistake!

This is all very true. Redd was able to get everything out of the F6F that it had to offer. Likewise, I had the F4U-1 at its limits (and sometimes a bit beyond). I do not think that anyone else could have gotten anymore from either aircraft. Which is why I completely agree with Redd's conclusion.

That said, a good pilot in the F4U-1 will beat 90% of the MA Hellcat drivers, probably getting them off the merge. On the other hand, an F6F driver of Redd's skill will beat 99% of the MA F4U-1 pilots. That last 1% reserved for unexpected things, such as warps and collisions on the merge.

Remember, this testing was done to compare dogfighting abilities of the aircraft. No effort was made to unload and extend. It was right on the deck, so diving away was not possible. We flew several sustained turn fights, and the F6F was consistently the better of the two.

This kind of testing is valuable in that the pilots are close enough that the plane is the real deciding factor. If you were to base your opinion on flying against the average MA pilot, one could easily assume that the F4U-1 was significantly better. Against a highly skilled F6F pilot, you define the F4U-1's limitations and advantages with much greater clarity, and the only advantage was on the initial reverse, after that it was the F6F's fight.

Now, against the P-38 or 109G-2, the F4U-1 would have faired even worse, as both of these are insanely good in the pure vertical, exactly the flight regime where the F4U-1 is weakest in performance.

Speaking of the P-38, Ren and I had a scrum with Ren flying the Ki-84 and I was flying a P-38G (50% fuel). Flaps out, these are very evenly matched aircraft. I think that the P-38G scrubs speed much faster when needed, and the Ki-84 is at risk of overshooting. At 130 mph the Ki-84 has a very slight turning advantage, but if speeds increase only slightly, it can't keep the flaps out and then the P-38G can out-turn it. In the pure vertical we were both surprised. At around 100 mph, Ren pulled into a sustained vertical climb. I followed and we both wagged our heads as the P-38G, with no WEP, flew right up the Hayate's butt. We both assumed that the P-38G would fall off first. Not only did it not fall off first, it caught up. And while I was dancing on the rudders, it chugged right on by....

Later, with Ren on my 6 in a SpitV and me not being able to shake him with hard turns, I pulled into the vertical at about 90 mph. The Spit simply could not follow. In fact, starting at 90 mph, the P-38G went over the top with complete control. Joking with Ren, I told him I was looking around the cockpit for the Sikorsky data plate.....

My regards,

Widewing

[DamnedRen]

Please understand when you read all that information about the planes the Widewing wrote really is a discussion about the absolute ability of the planes. We are talking about the deck, slow, trying to work both turns and the vertical getting every inch of performance we possibly could out of the planes.

What does this mean? All of the planes will do a whole lot more for you given setup, alt, energy, speed, etc. But, we are showing you absolute performance that you can add to your knowledge base and pull out of your bag of tricks if, one day, you find yourself in the situation Wildwing decribes above.

Did I mention that day could be tomorrow?

Besides, it's fun too!!!:)

[Widewing]

Originally posted by DamnedRen
Please understand when you read all that information about the planes the Widewing wrote really is a discussion about the absolute ability of the planes. We are talking about the deck, slow, trying to work both turns and the vertical getting every inch of performance we possibly could out of the planes.

What does this mean? All of the planes will do a whole lot more for you given setup, alt, energy, speed, etc. But, we are showing you absolute performance that you can add to your knowledge base and pull out of your bag of tricks if, one day, you find yourself in the situation Wildwing decribes above.

Did I mention that day could be tomorrow?

Besides, it's fun too!!!:)

Excellent points, Ren.

While this type of flight data is useful info, it also does not reflect the typical fights you will find in the MA. The vast majority will be at much higher speeds. How many La-7 and Dora drivers will engage in stall fighting with a P-38? Damned few, as only the over-confident or inexperienced would even consider that.

How this data can help is when you do find yourself in a low-speed scrum, you know what your aircraft is capable of. That, however, does not mean that YOU will be able to duplicate that performance. Every aircraft has limits, more often than not it's the pilot's limits that get in the way, not the plane's. It takes a great deal of time and effort to fully learn these individual aircraft. By this I mean hundreds of hours and hundreds of fights

Here's an example: Let's say that you have been flying the SpitV for six months. You feel pretty confident in it and generally do well. Then one day you run into Leviathn or Slapshot and get your fanny handed to you in a lace wrapping. You just discovered that there was more performance in the Spit than you had thought. That's what comes from knowing every nuance of the aircraft and its capabilities. To compete with guys of that caliber, you will have to compete against them regularly. You will never rise far above the level of your competition. So, to achieve a level such as theirs, you will have to work, work and work some more. And, you will have to fight the best to ever hope to reach their level. But understand that getting to that level will result in getting slapped around a lot. Like the body builders say, "no pain, no gain".

So, film your fights, learn from your defeats, explore the full limits of your preferred aircraft. Eventually, you will attain a high level of ability. You might still find some that are better, but not everyone has the same gifts from the outset. That's not important. What is important is that you are having fun and you are doing the very best you can.

My regards,

Widewing

[Shane]

Bah! i'm not *over-*confident!  i know exactly how good i am.

[TexMurphy]

@F6F vs F4U

I dont want to be ungreatfull for the responses to this thread but who kills what in what plane is really irrelevant.

Ive done a crapload of game ballance testing in another game (space sim) and the discussion here is not really gonna lead anywhere. First of all it really aint relevant what plane is better then another one in this game, its historically ballanced.

Second of all player skill and preference is a HUUUGE factor when it comes to ballance.

Only thing that matters is how close to RL the planes are. After that which one is the better plane is totally subjective. For player A the F6F is a better plane and for player B the F4U is the better plane. Some like apples some like oranges. No big deal.

If I wanted the "better" plane Id stay in the Spit9. Its a plane that suites me extreamly well and its an extreamly good plane. Im not interested in flying the "better" plane Im interested in becoming the "better" pilot.

I had my reasons why I chose the F6F over the F4U for my next plane to learn. Somewhere down the road I will do the F4U as well. But atm its the F6F and the main reason is that I really want to learn flaps handling. I choose to do that in the F6F as I dont have the "speed to safety" option but need to work my way out of bad situation, either through flying or chute.

@Topic of the thread.

Ive finally started to improve in the F6F. I was -><- close to giving it up.

Main problems I had was that I was way way way to agressive in it as I flew it the same way as I fly the Spit9. In the spit9 I do fly very "in your face" agressive and have pretty good aim in it. Ive not found my aim to the same level in the F6F and it doesnt like that kind of agressivness.

Ive started to fly it more the way I fly the Yak9U, short extends and alot of high YoYos. Works much better for me.

Against the Ki84 Im starting to find my solutions. If I merge at high speeds I do get in on their six. As soon as speed drops towards 200 I raise my flaps and dive away, then remerge when I got my speed above 300.

Though the biggest help for my F6F flying has been the fact that Ive been timesharing it with the P40. The P40 has been a great way to remove the spit9 agressivness from my system.

What I wonder is if anyone has some of you good F6F pilots have a few films where your gunnery can be studied.

Tex

[Redd]

Lol Tex , you are right , after about a dozen posts everyone managed to stray way off the topic.


What were we talking about again      


KI-84's  - Kill quickly


P-38's  Ditto


Gunnery tip - have you moved the sight right up the glass  (pgup)

The Hellcat has come of the best deflection gunnery visibility going around.  I always miss it when I jump in anything else.

These days  (AH2)  I have convergence set at  250, and I try not to  shoot until I see that D200 icon . I just have al guns set the same.

The biggest tip I could give you for 6 X 50's , is get those tracers turned off , as soon as you get a feel for the gunnery. I find the smoke and tracers really distracting , and your gunnery will improve in the long term.


Flaps , I think I use them like this , doesn't always work out but


tend to not use them in the "stay fast" phase ,

Use them at the top and bottom of loops/yoyo's at beginning of angles fight phase if trying to preserve E   (yoyo's are good opition , kick yourself around with that huge rudder)

go to 1 click straight away if I'm fighting a spit or better, rapidly becoming 2 or even 3 clicks in a drawn out fight with a spit. Probably alternating between 2 and 3


In rolling scissors let them all out , and use plenty of rudder  for balancing and flipping the plane  around when you roll



Hope some of that helps

[TexMurphy]

Redd.

When I was in the Spits I was never gunning outside 200d.. maybe.. maybe 300d..

I think one of the reasons Im not finding my aim in the F6F is that Im gunning at a longer range. Bit of it is from the "I got more ammo" factor. I guess I should get back to just taking the 200d shots.

I havent used tracers for quite a few months and it really has helped.

On flaps. Im starting to get a better feel for the usage. Im as you saying using it in top of loops/immels and once Im through the "keep it fast stage". What I need to judge better is when that stage *should* end.

Using full flaps in scissors is something I havent done but should try.

When it comes to rudder thats my other pain.

Atm I use it for:

1. Stall/spin corrections.
2. Bleeding E to create overshoots.
3. Landing and takeoff.

Im trying to learn to use it in turns but am struggling very much there.

Ive also been trying to learn a "rudder high yoyo" basicly a high YoYo that I kick around with the rudder. Ive managed to do it a few times like 1 out of 10. Most often I either find my self rolling and loosing orientation or just hanging there not getting the plane around.

I can read from everyone "use rudder" but my question is how and when?????

Tex

[Widewing]

Originally posted by TexMurphy
I can read from everyone "use rudder" but my question is how and when?????

Tex

Rudder is used to assist rolling at low speeds. Rudder is used to skid, excellent for passing shots on the merge. Rudder is used in conjuction with aileron and elevator as an effective evasive (a yawing barrel roll). Rudder allows you to yaw the plane for shots you would not get otherwise. There's many other instances as well. Rudder is a primary flight control and should be in use to some degree whenever you are maneuvering.

I made a film offline specifically to show how rudder is used to assist low speed flight. It was made for Noobs in the TA, but may benefit players with greater experience. Watch it from the chase position, zoomed in as close as possible. From the chase position you get a better sense of attitude variation. It's unfortunate that the film viewer does not show rudder displacement, but you can tell from the attitude of the plane when rudder is being applied, and how much is applied. This film also demonstrates the excellent low speed stability of the F4U-1, it handles like a Piper Cub.

Film

My regards,

Widewing

[TexMurphy]

Widewing.

thanks alot. will watch the movie as soon as I get home from todays hockey game.

Tex

[Magoo]

Yes the F6F is greatly assisted by the rudder in a roll, especially at low speeds.

Time to hijack the thread momentarily - who uses the stick twist rudder and who uses rudder pedals? I personally hate the stick twist rudder and my rudder pedals are like gold to me. When my rudder gets shot out it's almost like I'm lost...

So if we're gonna talk about flying the F6F and using the rudders, I'd recommend some rudder pedals to allow you to duplicate the results given in this thread.

Also, WideWing and Ren, were you using Combat trim in the testing you did?

Magoo