Author Topic: Dora pointers  (Read 2634 times)

Offline Bullethead

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Dora pointers
« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2005, 09:56:02 PM »
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Naudet said:
Grits, its one of the funnierst thing you can do in a furball against spits/Niki (as long as Levi isn't among them).
They just don't expect a FW190 to slow down that much and you will force lots of overshots that way.


All FWs can also do what I call the "Bleed Turn".  The A-models do it better than the Dora, but that just means in the Dora you can't use it on spit5s and anything already real slow.  Save it for faster spits and ponies if you're in a Dora.

Anyway, the Bleed Turn works like this:  You're considerably faster than a slow-ish spit and are closing in for the kill from dead astern.  He just has the juice left to make a hard flat turn, he can't really go vertical.  So he starts his turn.  And you turn your FW hard enough to keep pure pursuit, then tighten to lead pursuit as you slide in behind.  The FWs bleed speed so fast when you do this that you pretty much drop instantly down to co-speed, perhaps a bit slower, so their turn radius tightens up faster than the target's.  This lets the FW turn inside the hard-turning spit, FOR A MOMENT.

DO NOT hold this turn for more than 1/4 of a circle or you'll blow way too much speed.  But you should get a good shot, or at least a blind, under-nose tracking shot, in this brief time.  But assume you miss.  Now you're co-E with a stallfighter, which is not what you want to do with an FW.  So you straighten out and dive away as best you can and rely on your acceleration.  The nme either has to turn 3/4 more of the circle or blow even more E revving hard back at you.  By the time he does, you'll be out of range and will gradually pull away as you either dive, low yoyo, or accelerate on the level.

Another cool FW trick is the split-s under 1k AGL.  If you're slow enough, it's like going over the top as somebody described above.  The plane just falls over and around.  So you can do a tighter low-speed split-s than most other planes.  If they try to follow you, they'll black out while pointed down at low alt :).  Mostly, however, they can't follow so will have to cut off at an angle to avoid augering.  You meanwhile get enough speed back as you go down to stay out of range once they're pointed at you again, and if you see you're too low you can use your wonderful roll rate to angle off a bit yourself.  Practice this offline until you can do it at 700' AGL or even less.  This is always a good last-ditch evasive move when you've gotten stupid and are low and slow in an FW.

Offline Bullethead

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Dora pointers
« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2005, 10:08:04 PM »
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Naudet said:
@Bullethead: I have to try that out with the low-yo-yos. Do you reduce RPM while doing it. Cause i fly the Dora almost exclusively but i can't maintain ~400mph on the deck using low yo yos and WEP.


No, I never touch the RPM unless I'm trying to stretch my fuel.

The low yoyo thing requires being VERY gentle on the stick to keep the Gs at 2 or less.  Any more and you waste speed, and you don't dare do that or the lamer will either get away or get you.  So you EASE into a very shallow climb, like 1-1.5k/min which, at about 400, you don't even notice as a climb.  Gain a few hundred feet, then EASE into a 0-G dive and EASE back out of it right above the deck.  Concentrate on very slow, very smooth stick movements.

Anyway, this works for me.  I can catch or get away from lamer7s doing this, although it takes a LONG time.  I see the lamer7 doing low yoyos himself, but to no avail.  I can still stay just an RCH faster than him.

Offline Naudet

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« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2005, 03:58:46 AM »
That 1k Split-S thingie sounds great. Never though of using the "over the top" flip as an emergency move at low alt.

About the lo-yo-yo, i am very gentle on the stick, it have also calibrated it in a way that allows me very soft G-loadchanges between 1-3Gs. Will practise this if i find the time.

And the "Bleed turn" are very useful move, but you have to be sure to hit, cause if you miss you will have to build up E first before returning to the fight.
I noticed that after getting my TrackIR i got considerably better at that.
In the D9 it often helps against slow turners like SpitVs to cut the throttle in this turn. This will slow you down extremly fast.
Again all this is not recommended for everyday use, as is has a high potential to leave you low and slow.


@Grits: The stupid things are the most fun. And i added the recommendation so anyone is warned. ;) :D

Offline Engine

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dora pointers
« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2005, 06:15:23 AM »
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Originally posted by Bullethead
Second, even if aerodynamically it COULD go that fast in theory, it simply wasn't built strong enough to take the stress.  
In Soviet Russia, Yak strong like bear, flies YOU.

Offline Morpheus

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Dora pointers
« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2005, 07:08:02 AM »
I'm nearly done with that film JB73. I dont want to just throw it together not being done and leave it at that.

If you could persuade my college professors to lighten my workload I might have a little more time to get it finished up faster.
If you don't receive Jesus Christ, you don't receive the gift of righteousness.

Be A WORRIOR NOT A WORRIER!

Offline JB73

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« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2005, 08:37:08 AM »
no worries bud ; ) !

take your time, if i was really worried i'd be emailing you every other day saying :

is it finished yet

is it finished yet

is it finished yet

is it finished yet

is it finished yet

is it finished yet

LOL ; ) and take your time, don't rush out something you are not happy with
I don't know what to put here yet.

Offline DaddyAck

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Dora pointers
« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2005, 04:13:59 PM »
I prefer the G-10 myself, though I have been known to fly the 190a-8 from time to time. :aok

Offline Brentlo

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Dora pointers
« Reply #37 on: April 09, 2005, 12:46:17 PM »
I have read in books that a pilot with a superior rolling aircraft, such as a 190 or P47 can cut inside the break turn of a better turning aircraft, by using what the book called a "lag displacement roll."  If the e.a. turned left, then you would roll right 180ish degrees and turn hard left to cut inside for a descent quick shot.  Is this feasible and does anyone do it with any success?  And is it really just roll right and pullthrough, or is it like half a barrel roll that has to be properly timed ie a short delay after the break before initiating the roll?  I have read some wonderful pointers in this thread that are more important for me to practice, but I was curious about this move that I read about.

Thanx

Offline JB73

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« Reply #38 on: April 09, 2005, 02:02:34 PM »
yes, almost every sortie brentlo

that's what is commonly reffered to as a "snapshot" you get one quick snap of a shot as they pass right in front of you, then you pull up into the vert usually.

it is very common in the BnZ or boom and zoom fighting style. even at twice the speed a dora can snap roll, pull back, and roll out flat again inside a spitfire for a split second.

the trick is aim, it is a hard shot, and 1/2 the time you hcan not see the plane you are attacking, you have to anticipate where he is going to pot up below your cowl.
I don't know what to put here yet.

Offline Brentlo

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« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2005, 09:43:53 AM »
Got it, thanx 73.

Offline Bullethead

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Dora pointers
« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2005, 11:50:01 AM »
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Brentlo said:
I have read in books that a pilot with a superior rolling aircraft, such as a 190 or P47 can cut inside the break turn of a better turning aircraft, by using what the book called a "lag displacement roll."  If the e.a. turned left, then you would roll right 180ish degrees and turn hard left to cut inside for a descent quick shot.ie a short delay after the break before initiating the roll? Is this feasible and does anyone do it with any success?


This isn't something I recommend doing regularly, at least until you're quite proficient with less risky moves and are feeling kinda cocky about your blind-shooting ability.  Or do it only when you're really desperate, like trying to stop the spit from killing the goon, or when you've already resigned yourself to death.  It can be done, but it's a low-percentage thing at the best of times and usually does more harm than good if you're in an FW.  In a 51, which can stand more hard turning before falling outta the sky, it's a safer proposition, but still low-percentage.

In general, when you're doing real E-fighting (as opposed to BnZ, which is a waste of everybody's time), you should avoid snapshots like the plague.  Real E-fighting consists of an aggressive, quick succession of vertical moves, the whole object of which is to build up great angles over several rapid passes while simultaneously bleeding the nme down until he's a sitting duck.  You make several passes on the nme, each more threatening than the last as you exploit the vertical to work towards his tail.  Each time you come in, you force the nme to make a hard evasive move that blows some of his E.  But you don't follow through into guns range on the first few passes, you break off early and go back up.  This makes it easier to gain even more angles for your next pass.

This is why snapshots are bad things for E-fighters.  Due to the short effective range of the weapons, combined with your high speed and the nme's tight turn radius at his low speed, closing into guns range from any angle outside the nme's 5-7 rear cone pretty much guarantees you'll overshoot his turn.  And when you overshoot, you blow most if not all of the angles you've built up so far, because the nme can rev back in behind you or just continue around to meet you head-on next time.  So now you have to start all over, but it's more difficult now because you've used up some of your own E getting to this point, so you have much less of an E advantage to work with for the necessary vertical moves to re-establish your angles.  Plus you've wasted a lot of time, which is your biggest enemy.  As time passes, more nmes arrive, there's a greater chance you'll make a mistake, and if you give any dweeb enough time, he'll find a way to kill you.

This is why everybody says E-fighting requires patience.  You have to suppress the urge to take snapshots early in the fight, knowing that if you keep on working this target as you've been doing, you'll eventually end up with a perfect, low-deflection tracking shot.  AH2's gunnery model makes patience in E-fighting more vital than ever before.  There's a real premium on accuracy, and the best way to get that is at point-blank range from right behind the target.  Don't settle for anything else.  When you've achieved the angles and E advantage required to get a tempting snapshot opportunity, just remember that 1 more high yoyo will probably get you a perfect shot.  So have the patience to break off well outside of guns range and go up 1 more time.

Offline pellik

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« Reply #41 on: April 11, 2005, 02:15:24 PM »
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Originally posted by Brentlo
I have read in books that a pilot with a superior rolling aircraft, such as a 190 or P47 can cut inside the break turn of a better turning aircraft, by using what the book called a "lag displacement roll."  If the e.a. turned left, then you would roll right 180ish degrees and turn hard left to cut inside for a descent quick shot.  Is this feasible and does anyone do it with any success?  And is it really just roll right and pullthrough, or is it like half a barrel roll that has to be properly timed ie a short delay after the break before initiating the roll?  I have read some wonderful pointers in this thread that are more important for me to practice, but I was curious about this move that I read about.

Thanx


I think bullethead mis-read this move a little. This is a pretty classic lag turn move. This IS E-fighting at it's finest. Lets assume your in a 190D9 trailing a spit9 and he does a hard flat left turn. You roll right 90 and, without stopping your roll, start to pull back on the stick turning into a nose low barrel roll. Once your mostly oriented to the left you'll complete this as a deep lag low yo-yo. You'll need to be faster then him. Basically what your looking to do is get a little below him, offset your turn radius a bit, and drop into deep lag persuit using your speed to shoot past his tail and out of sight while you finish getting around on him. One of three things happen here -- he can continue his turn in which case your off set large radius turn will quickly give you a very hittable low angle deflection shot. He can cut and extend in which case your faster then him and below him, which sets you up for a more effecient high yo-yo after the next move to regain any E you lost. Or, if he is a much more competent pilot, as soon as you start heading below his 6 line he'll reverse his turn to get you in view, which gives you an easy snapshot-into-extend but may expose you to a low probability reversal. This last possibility is dangerous, but not really any more dangerous then him cutting into you when you dweeb it out with high yo-yos.

In other words go ahead and put this in your routine. Tricks like this make your E game less predictable, and more effective. Just think this through first and be prepared for any counter your opponent throws out, as very few people in the MA know how to exploit lag turns and you'll see some crazy stuff get thrown at you when you fly out of their playbook.

-pellik

Offline Naudet

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« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2005, 05:48:33 AM »
The lag or vector roll is especially useful if you try to follow a break turning bandit in a multiplane engagement.
The guy usually sees you breaking away from him in the first stage of the move, flatens out and focuses on another target, while you are actually comin back at him and get a nice clean low 6 shot.

Offline Brentlo

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« Reply #43 on: April 12, 2005, 09:15:01 AM »
Thanks for the replies gentlemen, very informative.

Offline Grits

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« Reply #44 on: April 12, 2005, 11:26:59 AM »
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Originally posted by pellik
In other words go ahead and put this in your routine. Tricks like this make your E game less predictable, and more effective. Just think this through first and be prepared for any counter your opponent throws out, as very few people in the MA know how to exploit lag turns and you'll see some crazy stuff get thrown at you when you fly out of their playbook.

-pellik


Well said pellik. I have seen some crazy stuff when you do this. The most common reaction is to fly straight and level, I think they are so used to looking for guys in lead or pure pursuit that they dont even see you when you are in low 6 lag pursuit. Most of them also dont expect any fast plane like the P47's, 190's and such to pull such an aggressive move and think you just extended.

It is risky, but the payoff is worth the risk IMO.