Author Topic: Dora pointers  (Read 2635 times)

Offline Max

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Dora pointers
« on: March 18, 2005, 11:33:26 AM »
As of late, I've noticed an increase in the number of Fw190D's in the MA. Perhaps it's just that the new icons make them more easier to spot. In any case being a Typhoon fan, I've come to fear the Dora and would like to fly it awhile to learn it's strenghts and weaknesses.

I use DT's to alt to the fight and drop back to 1/2 of fuel. My MG's and cannons are both set to d375. How'm I doing so far? Once engaged I B&Z and use the nifty roll rate to conserve E. Having faught them, I know they have an incredible verticle zoom climb rate which seems to sustain itself forever. I just tried it myself and roped a number of Spits up. Trouble is, I couldn't pull the nose back around and down fast enought to get a firing solution.
Any tips on that?  What I was doing was this: at about 150 ias, I'd pulled a half roll over while dropping a notch of flaps, and kicking about 1/2 rudder to get my tail up; noce down. By the time I pointed down the bad guy is pointed at me. What's the trick here?

DmdMax

Offline JB42

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Dora pointers
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2005, 11:58:26 AM »
I'd love to tell you, but then I would to kill you MUHAAHHA!!

A little piece of me always feels like i'm cheating in a Dora. :D

You did what seems to be a textbook rope and HH. My only guess is you misjudged his E-State. Try lowering your RPMs a couple of 1000 when laying down the rope. This helps be make you fight less left roll as you start getting slow. It will also allow you to stay verticle a little longer, hopefully long enough to bleed your nme.
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Offline JB73

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Dora pointers
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2005, 12:08:41 PM »
i can never get the nose over stable in the dora, i am usually in a floppy nose down stall, and miss the shot, but yes it can zoom amazing. just watch those desperate D800 hispano lazers. i have died MANY a time to them in the rope.


also, here's a hint i dont like giving out... left spiral climb.
I don't know what to put here yet.

Offline Max

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Dora pointers
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2005, 12:23:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by JB42
I'd love to tell you, but then I would to kill you MUHAAHHA!!

Try lowering your RPMs a couple of 1000 when laying down the rope. This helps be make you fight less left roll as you start getting slow. It will also allow you to stay verticle a little longer, hopefully long enough to bleed your nme.


9 years flying sims and NO ONE has ever mentioned chopping rpms in a zoom climb. I'll give it a try.

At the top of my climb, given a roll left or right, do you have a preference?

DmdMax

Offline StarOfAfrica2

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Dora pointers
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2005, 01:12:13 PM »
Left.  Definitely.  Although pulling the throttle back makes it less necessary, the nose will come down faster to the left.

Offline Bullethead

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Re: Dora pointers
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2005, 05:03:41 PM »
Quote
DMax said:
I've come to fear the Dora and would like to fly it awhile to learn it's strenghts and weaknesses.


You do well to Fear the Dora, young one.  It is the true Weapon of the Dark Side.  If you use it correctly, you're invincible.

The Dora has the following strengths:
  • It is THE fastest non-perked prop plane in the game, except for the bug that allows the Yak-9U to ignore compression and greatly exceed its historical redline speeds and Gs.  But otherwise, you can run down or out-run every other non-perked planes at most alts, even down to the deck, although the speed difference with some like lamer7s and 109g10s is very small.
  • It has good firepower with 2x13mm and 2x20mm, all of which are essentially on the centerline, although all suffer reduced ROF from being synchronized.  Still, with German electric priming, that decrease isn't as bad as for other nationalities.
  • It has very good E-keeping qualities in the vertical, in that it can zoom higher than most planes from the same starting speed, and it accelerates VERY quickly in a dive to get that speed right back.
  • It has the usual quick FW roll rate.
  • It has very good cockpit visibility.
  • It has decent range under the 2.0 FBR with a DT.  And because it needs the DT, flying the Dora keeps you from needlessly dying in jabo attacks.  Leave that for the kamikaze dweebs :).
  • It's very durable.  It can usually take a few cannonballs and keep on going with nothing showing in CTRL-D.  It can also survive collisions.  You can, for instance, run a wingtip into most other planes and come off missing just an aileron, whereas the other plane might lose a wing.
  • It's got that whole Dark Side mystique going.
  • If you're immune to its harmful effects, you can pipe the methanol boost into your oxygen mask to wet your throat as you fly.  Methanol immunity is gradually acquired over many hops, and goes some way to fix your nitrous jones that you got in the A8 model :D.


Weaknesses:
  • The Dora doesn't hold E well in hard flat turns, as if any Dora pilot's gong to do that anyway.
  • I can't think of any others.


So, to fly the Dora, you get a lot of alt, then a lot of speed, and you stay fast.  Always fight with an initial E advantage.  You use the vertical, doing a rapid series of aggressive high yoyos and lag rolls, never giving the nme time to catch his breath, to bleed the target into wallowing helplessness while you maintain enough speed to be safe from most other nmes in the typical fight.  You kill the nme, you extend with your speed, you grab some alt back, and you return to the furball.  Then you RTB when out of fuel.  Odds are, you won't take any damage except from acks and HOs.  You should never get shot in the back except, perhaps, by another Dora, provided you don't get stupid.

Quote
I use DT's to alt to the fight and drop back to 1/2 of fuel. My MG's and cannons are both set to d375. How'm I doing so far?


Not well.  Always take full tanks.  The ONLY reason to ever go with less fuel is to turn harder in a stallfight, which is NOT what you do in the Dora.  OTOH, the heavier you are, the quicker you accelerate in a dive, and the more momentum you have in a zoom, which is making the Dora's strengths even better.  Also, you need all that fuel to be able to fly the 1.5 - 2 sectors needed to grab 20k on ingress, to grab some alt between engagements during the furball, and for the trip home.  Besides, you might want to chase, or be chased by, a 109g10 or lamer7.  This will be a LONG chase, and you can always run them out of gas, which is a lot of fun :).

Also, your convergence needs work.  You need to set the 20mm at about 200 yards and the MGs at about 300.  This gives them all good concentration at the only effective ranges in the games, which are between 100 and 300 yards.  Try never to shoot from beyond 200 yards except in 0-deflection chase, and NEVER shoot head-on except at buffs.  But in any case, you can usually get 1-pass kills at these ranges with these convergence settings, even if only about 1/2 a second of fire hits the target.  You get enough hits close enough together to do fatal damage.  I usually run out of fuel LONG before I run outta ammo, but that's because I'm very careful picking my shots.

Quote
Once engaged I B&Z and use the nifty roll rate to conserve E. Having faught them, I know they have an incredible verticle zoom climb rate which seems to sustain itself forever. I just tried it myself and roped a number of Spits up. Trouble is, I couldn't pull the nose back around and down fast enought to get a firing solution.


BnZ is a total waste of time.  All it gets you is HOs.  What you need to do is fairly tight high yoyos to stay inside the nme's turn and keep your passes close enough together in time that the nme can't catch his breath between them.  2 or 3 of these and the nme is bled so much he can't go vertical at all and can barely turn, so you'll have an excellent butt-shot at him as you scream by.

Ropes are fun to do but the problem with them is that they require the nme to be very stupid.  They rely on his Greed.  Any pilot worth his salt will see the trap and not follow you up enough to get in trouble.  This is why you need to use the nme's Fear instead.  Cut your zooms off lower and tighter, pulling over with a higher speed instead of waiting until you nearly stall.  Not only does this make your next pass happen sooner, it keeps you inside the nme's turn so you build angles and keep the pressure on, so the nme is forced to bleed a lot or die right then.

Quote
Any tips on that?  What I was doing was this: at about 150 ias, I'd pulled a half roll over while dropping a notch of flaps, and kicking about 1/2 rudder to get my tail up; noce down. By the time I pointed down the bad guy is pointed at me. What's the trick here?


Supose you spot a lower nme so you swoop at him.  First you have to do the swoop correctly.  Dive steeply down to his alt or a bit below while still a long way from him horizontally, then approach him more or less co-alt on the level, perhaps in a slight climb.  This keeps you from diving below the nme, which is about the worst mistake you can make.  Give the nme just enough horizontal separation on the approach to avoid getting HO'd, then start your vertical move while you're still several hundred yards out, like about the time you'd shoot if you were a HOdweeb.  Hope the nme fires, because that proves he's an idiot and you'll easily get into his rear hemi because he's bound to overshoot you :).

Your vertical move is a form of high yoyo that might end up becoming a lag roll.  It'll end up looking like a loop that's twisted in several places.  Basically, as you start up, you roll, pull, roll, pull, etc., as needed to keep yourself heading into the nme's rear hemi, while going up high enough to be sure he can't follow you even with bullets.  Then you come back down, NOT when you have a certain speed, but when you're in the correct position relative to the nme to be coming in from his rear hemi.  

As you start to close in towards firing range, the nme will turn hard into you.  At this point, you DO NOT continue in for a shot, because that will be a bad snapshot and will force you to overshoot his turn.  Instead, go back up and do the same sort of thing again, only it's easier this time because you're starting behind the nme already instead of in front of him.  You do this 2nd vertical move from at least 400 yards out.  The closer you are to the nme, the harder it is to stay in his rear hemi.  You should expect this sequence of events, and not even THINK about pulling the trigger until the next pass at the earliest, if then.

OK, now you're coming in again on the nme's rear hemi, probably with somewhat better angles.  This time, the nme's pretty well bled down and totally defensive, having realized your E superiority by now.  So odds are, he'll go straight as you close in trying to rebuild his speed, and then make a hard break at the last second just before you're in range.  You should expect this to happen and already be starting 1 last yoyo.  And this time, the nme'll be too bled down to even do this, and you'll have him dead.  1 touch of the trigger and he dies.  Then you extend away from the other nmes and grab some alt prior to your next engagement.

Offline Redd

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Re: Re: Dora pointers
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2005, 05:35:52 PM »
or you can make 3 clumsy HO passes before extending to the horizon like 99% of the dora's do    ;)



Nice post Bullethead , not meaning to take away from it , just be nice to see more people actually use it like that.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2005, 05:38:59 PM by Redd »
I come from a land downunder

Offline Bullethead

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Re: Re: Re: Dora pointers
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2005, 06:39:23 PM »
Quote
Redd said:
or you can make 3 clumsy HO passes before extending to the horizon like 99% of the dora's do    ;)


Hey Redd, long time no talkie!  Hope all is well with you.

Anyway, yeah, that's a real shame.  Makes me sick to see such a great plane so incompetently handled.  But that's been the sad fact of life since the Great Dweeb Invasion of the late 90s so thoroughly diluted the talent pool.  Nobody much knows what real E-fighting is these days.  All the dweebs care about is the RTS aspect of capturing bases, so all they know about is making a bombrun and then turning till they die.  They only fly E-fighters because they carry the most ord, and only use them for kamikaze pork runs.  They don't even try to fight, because they know these planes don't turn, and that's all they know how to do.  If they want to fight, they go with a stallfighter and their tactical thinking all centers around "the merge", as if that was something you're actually supposed to do outside of an arranged duel.  The only other type of combat they've ever heard of is BnZ, which they mistakenly think is E-fighting.  So when I do what I outlined above, basically making a Dora turn inside a spit and keeping it there while staying faster, I get accused of cheating on a regular basis :(.


Quote
be nice to see more people actually use it like that.


I agree.  But it don't seem like very many folks have the patience required for it.  They just can't get over their stallfighter habit of taking every snapshot that comes along, so just can't grasp the idea of deliberately breaking off early on what look like good shots, at least at the start of the pass.  So they close in too soon, the nme turns hard as they do so, and they end up with a high-deflection snapshot that they probably miss, they overshoot well beyond the nme's turn, and blow a lot of E doing it.  Then the nme revs back into them and they die because they no longer have speed and the nme turns better.  After doing this several times, they give up on E-fighters and go back to being spitdweebs :(

Offline Widewing

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Re: Re: Dora pointers
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2005, 08:01:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bullethead
You do well to Fear the Dora, young one.  It is the true Weapon of the Dark Side.  If you use it correctly, you're invincible.

The Dora has the following strengths:
  • It is THE fastest non-perked prop plane in the game, except for the bug that allows the Yak-9U to ignore compression and greatly exceed its historical redline speeds and Gs.  But otherwise, you can run down or out-run every other non-perked planes at most alts, even down to the deck, although the speed difference with some like lamer7s and 109g10s is very small.

 [/B]


Nice post, Bullethead.

I recently tested most of the faster aircraft for acceleration, climb and speed at various altitudes.

On the deck, the Dora is faster than every non-perked plane except the La-7, and this tested at 375 mph for the Dora, 380 mph for the La-7.

As you go up the both the Dora and the La-7 are overtaken by the 109G-10.

Here's some measured speeds at altitudes for several aircraft:

28.5K
109G-10: 436 mph
P-51D: 433 mph
P-38J: 412 mph
190D-9: 406 mph

25K
109G-10: 443 mph
P-51D: 441 mph
190D-9: 421 mph
P-38J: 420 mph

20K
109G-10: 444 mph
190D-9: 426 mph
P-51D: 425 mph
P-38J: 405 mph

Sea level
La-7: 380 mph
190D-9: 375 mph
P51D: 367 mph
109G-10: 366 mph
P-38J: 343 mph

Acceleration from 200 mph to 300 mph @ 20K (time to speed in seconds).
P-38J: 27.47
109G-10: 29.28
190D-9: 30.78
P-51D: 34.01
La-7: 40.10

Acceleration from 200 mph to 300 mph @ sea level
La-7: 28.78
109G-10: 28.97
190D-9: 30.83
Ki-84: 35.96
P-38J: 36.57
P-51D: 36.93
Yak-9U: 37.40

Time to climb from sea level to 10k, starting @ 300 mph (minutes:seconds)
109G-10: 1:46.18
P-38J: 2:03.57
Ki-84: 2:04.09
190D-9: 2:04.35
La-7: 2:06.91

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline humble

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Dora pointers
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2005, 08:39:23 PM »
Like I said elsewhere....the J's a monster

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson

Offline Max

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« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2005, 07:24:48 AM »
Bullethead that's a GREAT read. I just sent ya e-mail via the board about getting some 1 v 1 training time with ya at your convenience. Let me know if you don't get it.

DmdMax

Offline TexMurphy

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« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2005, 08:03:08 AM »
Im no where near a Dora pilot.

But when comming over the top... flaps? In most planes that makes the nose over faster and more stable.

Tex

Offline Anchor

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« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2005, 05:21:47 PM »
Great write Bullethead.

But, I wouldn't discount a good pilot using the stall technique. There is always room for another procedure.

JB42 (and other JB's) are as good with a Dora I have seen. I fly with them every chance I get just to get a learn on.

I can't wait to work on your style if I can transfer it from words to the cockpit.

Thanks again.

Offline Bullethead

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Re: Re: Re: Dora pointers
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2005, 12:51:17 AM »
Quote
Widewing said:
I recently tested most of the faster aircraft for acceleration, climb and speed at various altitudes.  On the deck, the Dora is faster than every non-perked plane except the La-7, and this tested at 375 mph for the Dora, 380 mph for the La-7.  As you go up the both the Dora and the La-7 are overtaken by the 109G-10.


Sorry to be so lagged here.  I'm a truckdriver and was gone this time much longer than normal.

Anyway, I know the Dora's not supposed to be the fastest non-perked, non-porked plane.  And on the flat level, it isn't, as your data show.  

However, if you take low yoyos into account, the Dora is faster than every non-perked plane.  I've run down and out-run many lamer7s and 109G10s that way.  It all goes back to the Dora's great zoom ability and dive acceleration.  In a low yoyo, the Dora loses insignificant speed going up, and gains a fair amount coming down, so can maintain a higher average speed than anything else, even if the other plane is also doing low yoyos.  Nothing else does low yoyos as well.  Either they lose speed going up or don't gain as much coming down.  The Dora can maintain about 400 knots on the deck this way indefinitely, even without WEP, and gradually out-run anything else.

The only non-perked plane that can catch or get away from a Dora is the Yak-9U, and this only due to the bug that lets it breeze through compression without harm at about double its historical redline speed.  But on an NOE low yoyo run, where the 9U's bug doesn't come into play, the Dora is faster.

Offline straffo

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Dora pointers
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2005, 01:49:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bullethead
The only non-perked plane that can catch or get away from a Dora is the Yak-9U, and this only due to the bug that lets it breeze through compression without harm at about double its historical redline speed.  


Uh ?

What are you speaking about ?

And can you back your affirmation with fact and data ?