Author Topic: Culero, this is what I was talking about  (Read 1941 times)

Offline Steve

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Culero, this is what I was talking about
« on: March 18, 2005, 06:51:00 PM »
http://www.foxnews.com./story/0,2933,150750,00.html



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My life experience teaches me that on the whole, we're talking about a group of people who are hardworking, dedicated to family, honest and honorable, and who want nothing more than what you and I want - a chance to be part of our "American Dream". They don't want to freeload. They want to participate, contribute, and help the thing grow.


It just doesn't seem so here, does it?


* edit.   certainly not "on the whole"
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Offline culero

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Culero, this is what I was talking about
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2005, 08:46:37 PM »
Actually, Steve, I don't see anything in the article that contradicts what you quoted from my prior postings on the subject - when you take that quote in context with the rest of what I posted.

Again, allow me to try to explain this to you.

I agree with you that we should do a better job of controlling illegal immigration. OK?

I also agree that abuse of the resources in our healthcare system by illegals is a problem. OK?

What I can't seem to make you understand is that in many cases what motivates illegals to resort to emergency rooms for what should be things treated by physicians in their offices is the same thing that motivates many citizens to do so - poverty. (Point #1, please file for reference) These people do NOT necessarily have intent to be freeloaders. In many cases, they are simply....sick....or have a family member who they care about who is....yes, you guessed it....sick.

Further, a causal factor in motivating poor people to resort to abuse of the system in order to receive badly needed health care is the lack of a way to afford it within their means to pay. (Point #2, again please file for reference)

Last, the fact that illegals in many cases find sources of illegally paid for employment here at rates of pay that are both exploitave of their circumstances and so low there is no way medical care here will be affordable by those so employed is IMHnsO an indicator that we are, by virtue of how we are handling immigration and illegal employment issues, creating our own damn problem to a large extent. (Point #3, don't lose track here).

OK, let's summarize:

1) People who are sick and don't have money may want to be treated anyway and seek help where they can (doh). This doesn't mean they want to be freeloaders, they may just be in dire straits.

2) Our health care system isn't affordable until a person reaches a certain level of income - after all, there are more basic priorities, like food (doh again). If we fixed that by making sure alternatives existed that allowed people to receive basic health care by paying what they could afford, even if we had to subsidize that to some extent, we'd perhaps encourage them to do so rather than abusing emergency rooms and this would be beneficial and cheaper to us by far.

3) If we'd JAIL any prettythanghat who exploits wetback labor (including fat lazy gringas who pay for mexicanas to care for their kids while doing their laundry, farmers who want to be the cheapest in the market with product, sweatshop owners, etc) then that available job pool would dry up and perhaps there would be less motivation for people to seek it (doh X 3, eh?) Further, if we'd recognize there's a demand for these services and let capitalism work by allowing that demand to be filled legally, perhaps those who'd supply the demand would be very happy to be able to do so legally within the system, paying taxes AND for their health care (doh X 4 and I rest).

Try to get this straight. I, like you seem to be, am a libertarian. I believe that with freedom comes responsibility, including for self. I don't like paying anyone else's way, illegal or not.

I'm just compassionate enough towards other humans that I can sympathize with the plight of someone who's sick and can't dig enough pesetas out of their pocket to see a doctor.

I'm also sensible enough to realize that   there are problems with OUR SYSTEMS that serve to exacerbate the things you're complaining about. I am merely pointing those things that I recognize out and saying we'd go a long ways towards solving the problems you're complaining about (illegal immigration and abuse of our healthcare system) by being proactive in the search for solutions.

Man, I've done my best. If you still can't grasp what I'm saying, lets agree to disagree, OK?

culero
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Culero, this is what I was talking about
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2005, 10:00:24 PM »
Very well said Culero, you did a far better job in explaining it than I ever could.



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Originally posted by culero

3) If we'd JAIL any prettythanghat who exploits wetback labor (including fat lazy gringas who pay for mexicanas to care for their kids while doing their laundry, farmers who want to be the cheapest in the market with product, sweatshop owners, etc) then that available job pool would dry up and perhaps there would be less motivation for people to seek it (doh X 3, eh?) Further, if we'd recognize there's a demand for these services and let capitalism work by allowing that demand to be filled legally, perhaps those who'd supply the demand would be very happy to be able to do so legally within the system, paying taxes AND for their health care (doh X 4 and I rest).


culero


That's the best way to cut down on illegal immigrations but until the time the money these businesses put in the pockets of politicians, I don't see any real enforcement of our laws being upheld.  When Pete Wilson was governor of California, he stopped the immigration raids on farms and other businesses.  It later was found out that these businesses were some of his biggest political campaign money contributors.  This ban though wasn't lifted after he left office and still continues today in California.  

Another reason why these businesses fight so hard against any type of immigration reform such as the re-introduction of the Bracero program is that they'll have to pay for medical insurance and housing for their farm workers, which would mean increased prices in the stores for our produce.  

It's sad how, for the most part, these people that come across our border are looking for a better way of life, for them and their families and instead get used and exploited.


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Offline culero

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Culero, this is what I was talking about
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2005, 10:31:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack

snip
Another reason why these businesses fight so hard against any type of immigration reform such as the re-introduction of the Bracero program is that they'll have to pay for medical insurance and housing for their farm workers, which would mean increased prices in the stores for our produce.


Not necessarily so.

At the risk of being offensive, allow me to illustrate with rhetoric. How many plantation owners a couple of centuries ago said "I gotta have my slaves in order to get my cotton to market" only to be proven wrong by Eli Whitney?

My point is that there may be better solutions we haven't found simply because greed and a system that looks the other way encourages some folks to exploit others.

Make that behavior prohibitive by enforcement of labor laws (instead of saying "Throw them back over the fence!") and guess what? Our capitalist system would now have incentive to find a better way.

Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack

It's sad how, for the most part, these people that come across our border are looking for a better way of life, for them and their families and instead get used and exploited.


ack-ack


Word, brother.

I sometimes get pissed off when guys like Steve say the things they do, but I'm wrong to do so. Unfortunately, language and other cultural differences often tend to keep good people from understanding that other good people are good.

The things you and I understand here are things we understand because we speak the language and share an intimate knowledge of the culture of the people being discussed. Its easy to see why those without that advantage might misunderstand things, because appearances can be deceiving.

culero
“Before we're done with them, the Japanese language will be spoken only in Hell!” - Adm. William F. "Bull" Halsey

Offline Lizking

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Culero, this is what I was talking about
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2005, 10:32:05 PM »
I don't buy the story they get used and exploited.  I work with them everyday, dozens, hundreds of them.  I like them, respect them, and want them jailed for being illegal.

Offline culero

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Culero, this is what I was talking about
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2005, 10:37:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Lizking
I don't buy the story they get used and exploited.  I work with them everyday, dozens, hundreds of them.  I like them, respect them, and want them jailed for being illegal.


So, am I to understand you condone the behavior of the people that hire them and pay them in the illegal ways they do?

Am I also to understand you'd rather we pay tax money to house and feed them in our jails instead of allowing them to work legally and pay their fair share of taxes on the money employers pay them for the services those same (citizen) employers encourage them to supply?

You've always seemed like a really sharp guy to me, I can't believe you don't have the capacity for insight enough to realize there's two sides to this coin (doh).

culero
“Before we're done with them, the Japanese language will be spoken only in Hell!” - Adm. William F. "Bull" Halsey

Offline Nash

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Culero, this is what I was talking about
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2005, 10:51:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by culero
always seemed like a really sharp guy to me, I can't believe you don't have the capacity for insight...


You caught him in a weak moment. Or something.

Because taking a stand against the entire enchilada is one thing, but wanting those who, on a daily basis, you work with, like, and respect jailed is out of control.

Offline Lizking

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Culero, this is what I was talking about
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2005, 10:53:08 PM »
I don't condone any of it, in any way shape or form.  They are breaking the law, the employers and the employees and they both cost us money.

That does not mean that I can not relate to them, but that has nothing to do with the fact that they are illegal.  Just like I can personally know and like a drug dealer and still condemn what he does for a living.

I would prefer that we sent them home the first time, then locked them up for a long time on the second offense.  That is the only way to end the cycle.

Offline Lizking

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Culero, this is what I was talking about
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2005, 10:59:48 PM »
If I was King, they would get a free ride home the first time, while the person who paid them would be fined a large sum.

On the second offense, they would both be busting rocks in the desert, living in tents behind chain link fences for a long time.  After a few years of this, there would be no incentive for them to cros the border illegally.  There are good programs in place for employers to make, and get legal workers from Mexico.  

The harm they do is not limited to the strain on our social services; it is much deeper than that, and depresses the wages of many jobs to a level where"no one will work for that".  The reason no one will work for that is because they can't, but the illegals CAN, and WILL.

I am not talking about laborers here, mind you, but business owners and contractors running crews and enterprises.

Offline Nash

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Culero, this is what I was talking about
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2005, 11:03:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Lizking
The reason no one will work for that is because they can't, but the illegals CAN, and WILL.


Do they have some kind of gene that you don't share? Are they impervious to meteorites as well?

Offline culero

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Culero, this is what I was talking about
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2005, 11:06:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Lizking
snip
I would prefer that we sent them home the first time, then locked them up for a long time on the second offense.  That is the only way to end the cycle.


Excuse me, BS. Plain and simple. Your proposed solution not only is expensive, its_just_plain_stupid.

The same thing can be accomplished by shutting off their opportunity to HAVE illegal employment (think! man! if the job ain't there they CAN'T have it!).

Don't you believe in our core values, like capitalism and a free market? Wake up and smell the coffee, man. Force employers to operate within the law, allow any demand for services that can't be filled by citizens to be legally filled by non-citizens, et voila. Problem solved. QED and all that stuff.

Jeez.

culero (seriously, quit being stubborn in your prejudices and think this through)

PS - also don't allow this discussion to offend you. We need to go fishing this summer and discuss it over tight lines and BBQ here at fish camp deluxe (that's me, about a 15 minute boat drive SE into the Lower Laguna Madre from Port Mansfield). E-mail me and lets make plans. Seriously.
“Before we're done with them, the Japanese language will be spoken only in Hell!” - Adm. William F. "Bull" Halsey

Offline Lizking

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Culero, this is what I was talking about
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2005, 11:08:56 PM »
No, Nash, they do not pay car insurance, they live 12 to an apartment (for examples), they are willing to accept a much lower standard of living than the typical American, and since they do not pay things like workers comp and most taxes, they are able to do work for less than a comparable, legal company can.

Their personal choices re living conditions are fine, but the unfair advantage they gain by not complying with workplace requirements are not.

You can blame their ability to get away with this on whatever you want, but the fact remains they do.

Offline Lizking

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Culero, this is what I was talking about
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2005, 11:09:49 PM »
Culero, I agree with that, 100%.

Offline Lizking

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Culero, this is what I was talking about
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2005, 11:11:18 PM »
Hey Culero, I am ready for some bay fishing, big time.

Offline culero

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Culero, this is what I was talking about
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2005, 11:11:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Lizking
Culero, I agree with that, 100%.


OK, so when do you wanna go fishing? :)

culero (my e-mail here works)
“Before we're done with them, the Japanese language will be spoken only in Hell!” - Adm. William F. "Bull" Halsey