help from the 38 jocks out there please

[Murdr]

Heh, that was kind of fun picking out those screenies.
Here's a rolling scissors aginst a n1k tonight.

[Murdr]

Here is another film (direct link).  Its only a minute and a half long.  It shows how the 38 can zoom, flap down, and still climb at slow speed.  
Its jus another aspect of the 38s abilities in the verticle.

[Murdr]

Forget that last film, got a much better one this morning.  Here is one where I spend well over a minute in a flap hang with a bogie just under my 6.

FlapHangExtreme

[Balsy]

Hey! after about 10 years of this, I just discovered,  I can  change the POV on the AH films viewer by sliding the window adjustments.

My stupidity has no limits....

Balsy

[Naudet]

Murdr, do i understand the images right? Your reversed at a minimum speed of 15/22mph IAS?

If yes, hell than i know a Dora-Jock like me should NEVER EVER follow a P38 into the vertical. Dora ist just not controllable once under 100mph IAS.

[pellik]

Originally posted by Naudet
Murdr, do i understand the images right? Your reversed at a minimum speed of 15/22mph IAS?

If yes, hell than i know a Dora-Jock like me should NEVER EVER follow a P38 into the vertical. Dora ist just not controllable once under 100mph IAS.

He can hold it verticle below zero, 22mph ain't no thing.

-p.

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Naudet
Murdr, do i understand the images right? Your reversed at a minimum speed of 15/22mph IAS?

If yes, hell than i know a Dora-Jock like me should NEVER EVER follow a P38 into the vertical. Dora ist just not controllable once under 100mph IAS.

That's one of the first things you learn how to do if you plan on flying the P-38.  P-38 can stay nose up, as Pellik said at 0mph and then have the nose just swing down, pointing straight at the belly of the guy you just roped.  Honestly, nothing compares to the P-38 in the vertical.  I've heard some say the Ki-84 is just as good but in my experiences fighting against the Ki-84, it just doesn't match the pure zoom power and vertical capabilities of the Lightning.


ack-ack

[Murdr]

You understand correctly.  

The Dora is actually an excelent pure zoomer.  The problem is the Dora takes forever to recover from a stall.

[pellik]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
That's one of the first things you learn how to do if you plan on flying the P-38.  P-38 can stay nose up, as Pellik said at 0mph and then have the nose just swing down, pointing straight at the belly of the guy you just roped.  Honestly, nothing compares to the P-38 in the vertical.  I've heard some say the Ki-84 is just as good but in my experiences fighting against the Ki-84, it just doesn't match the pure zoom power and vertical capabilities of the Lightning.


ack-ack

The 479th spammin it up here at the end of this post...


It's my impression that the KI-84 is just a really good slow fighter. Getting slow is kind of like stall fighting, but the 84 needs to level out and turnfight. A P38 can just line you up off his wing, cut throttle and spray through the accellerated hammer. That's my interpruitation of a true stallfighter.

-p.

[Naudet]

Actually the Dora recovers very easily when stalled, but it departs to easily into uncontrolled flight at low speeds.
Also it seems like the Dora doesn't like to bring here nose around in a wingover. At one point even with full rudder the plane "literally" stops the nose movement, wobbles around and is very likely to stall out for a brief moment.

I might try some flip overs/arounds with the Dora. Wonder if there is a way to keep her controlled in the vertical even under 100mph IAS.

EDIT: Did a quick offline try, filmed it and closely watched the results. I was able to reverse the Dora at very low speeds, some close to 20mph IAS. It was in the way that i tried to go as close to the vertical as possible as long as i could, at some point (~50 IAS) (otherwise torque will induce a spin) you have to kill the
engine and the plane will stall, once the nose drops to the horizon you have to push the stick forward that way you get the nose low and the plane recovers, at that point restart the engine.

I noticed a couple points, first engine torque will almost guaranty a spin at very low speeds, any control input lead to it. With throttle cut it is less prounced but still there.
Second the Dora wants to go hard to the left in the vertical and so a good amount of right rudder is needed to keep the nose straight up. It also wants to roll, but that is easily countered by aileron.
Third, at very low speed the Dora refuses to fall over the cockpit. Even when i tried to keep the plane in a position that would favour the the flip over the cockpit the plane once stalled flatens out, cockpit up. Even flaps won't help it here.

The P38 on the other hand literally reverses itself once below 20mph IAS. Though it will need some experience to get to the right position after the reversal, its much easier because the way up is very harmless. The counterrotating props really give it an advantage here.

[Murdr]

Let me rephrase that.  The altitude needed to convert from a verticle stall to level flight for a dora, is huge compaired to a 38.  That's what I ment.  For combat reasons I ignore 'controled flight' in that situation, and focus on 'recover level flight', since anywhere outside the arc where they can lift their nose is a safe zone.

[Simaril]

Gentlemen, I thank you. This has been one of the most helpful threads I've encountered!!


Apologize in advance for the mini-hijack: but I have a related P-38 problem. Just starting to fly this ship, after getting my junior ACM feet established in a Spit V.  When hitting the top of a loop in 38, I repeatedly have stalled, entered flat spin, and been unable to recover with usual interventions. For now, as temporary expedient, I've got stall limiter on when in the 38 to get some flight time. So:

1) how do you get those very slow speeds without the accellerated flat spin?
2) is there any way to get out of that once you're in it? I've worked my way down from 12K waiting for the procedures to "catch" but ended up being divot filler....

[Ack-Ack]

First, turn off the Stall Limiter and if you have Combat Trim turned on, turn that off as well.  Also, make sure that you've got the P-38 elevators trimmed to approx neutral position.

When you're doing a loop, make sure that you do have sufficient speed in which to do it.  A P-38 can do a loop as slow as 150mph IAS with the aid of flaps.  In fact, you can endlessly loop the P-38 by just using flaps.  This was something that Leviathn had shown me in AH1 and it still works in AH2.  The flaps provide an excellent amount of lift and will help you keep from entering into an accelerated stall as you loop since they are doing most of the work and you're not pulling back on the stick as much.  You'll hear the buzzer go crazy as you ride the edge of the stall envelope.

As you reach the top of the loop and you're about to stall out, lower the flaps as needed to get over the top.  If you do it correctly, you should end up doing a stall loop.  When you do a stall loop, you are actually using the stall itself to get you over the top of the loop and if correctly done will cause the nose to swing down very quickly.

If you find yourself starting to float on your back at the top of the loop, use your rudders to get the nose down and get you out of that situation.




ack-ack

[Murdr]

Falling flat is a result of stalling nose down at an extremely low speed with full flaps engaged.  You need to make sure you are at least 5 deg over verticle when you lose momentum and hard stall, or you will end up falling flat.  To recover, fully retract your flaps and push the stick full forward.  Sometimes chopping throttle is also required.

As akak mentioned if you act quickly at the onset, by ruddering, and even possibly asemetrical power, you can yaw over and avoid that situation.

As to the accelerated stall/spin, a quick burst of asemetrical power will quickly get you out of it (eg. throttle back the engine on the outside of the rotation).  I have engine selections mapped to the stick, but when I didnt, I was still quick enough using the key commands to get out of it.

[pellik]

Originally posted by Murdr
Falling flat is a result of stalling nose down at an extremely low speed with full flaps engaged.  You need to make sure you are at least 5 deg over verticle when you lose momentum and hard stall, or you will end up falling flat.  

Just to nit-pick (and I don't mean cherry-picking knights ), power needs to be on and above maybe 10% for this to happen. If power is off in this situation the 38 will just float it out in a way that is, quite possibly, some sort of FM bug.

-p.