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Author Topic: Misterious 190 climb angle  (Read 1417 times)

Offline MANDO

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Misterious 190 climb angle
« on: March 23, 2005, 09:28:54 AM »
This issue was present in the past spit vs 190 discussions and also now related to 190 vs P51. It seems that 190s were able to keep a very step angle of substained climb, too step to be followed by spits or P51s.

I understand that the resulting climb rate was well lower than best climb rate, but, anyway, how was that possible? Which was that misterious angle, speed and climb rate? Is that 190s were able to almost hang on the prop for prolonged periods?
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Offline HoHun

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Re: Misterious 190 climb angle
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2005, 09:38:10 AM »
Hi Mando,

>It seems that 190s were able to keep a very step angle of substained climb, too step to be followed by spits or P51s.

Technically, the only explanation I can offer is that the Fw 190As were in fact zooming :-) In a sustained climb, the climb rate difference to a Mustang should be too small to allow such an effect.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
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Offline MANDO

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Misterious 190 climb angle
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2005, 09:55:12 AM »
I doubt a 190A can outzoom the P51. Probably it is more related to the minimum speed at which the 190 can keep climbing without stalling, resulting in an angle that would stall quickly the pursuer P51.
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Offline bunch

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Misterious 190 climb angle
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2005, 10:04:29 AM »
It wouldnt surprise me to find out that P-51s (weird wing cross-section) & Spitfires (thin cross-section) had a lower critical angle of attack than 190s.  It also wouldnt surprise me to find out the 190s were closer to bingo in combat than Mustangs & Spitfires
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Offline indy007

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Misterious 190 climb angle
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2005, 10:05:51 AM »
That's interesting. On the History channel the other day, they were interviewing a P-51 pilot who was describing his scarriest dogfight. Only won because the pursuing 190 stalled moments before his pony did. He nailed the 190 as they fell out out of the top of the vertical move.
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Offline F4UDOA

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Misterious 190 climb angle
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2005, 10:08:45 AM »
A couple of things.

1. The FW190 was typically climbed at a higher speed than most other fighters. I think this is a result of higher wing loading but the FW190's best climb speed was somewhere around 180MPH IAS. I would think based on this that the climb angle would be shallow not steep.

2. I also thought that the 190 had cooling issues with rear cylinders (common in radials) during a climb to the point of having to install a cooling fan behind the prop. This would also be a reason for higher speed shallow angle climbing.

If you look at the FW190 vrs F4U-1D/F6F-3 test the 190 was superior in climbs above 160MPH and inferior below that speed. I would imagine that the slower speeds relate to higher climb angles. Just my guess.
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Offline HoHun

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Misterious 190 climb angle
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2005, 10:18:33 AM »
Hi Mando,

>I doubt a 190A can outzoom the P51.

Of course it can - if it brings speed and the P-51 doesn't :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
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Offline GScholz

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Misterious 190 climb angle
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2005, 11:06:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by indy007
That's interesting. On the History channel the other day, they were interviewing a P-51 pilot who was describing his scarriest dogfight. Only won because the pursuing 190 stalled moments before his pony did. He nailed the 190 as they fell out out of the top of the vertical move.


That was a 109 not a 190.
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Offline MANDO

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Misterious 190 climb angle
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2005, 11:58:00 AM »
F4UDOA, you are talking about climb rate, I'm talking about angle.

Lets say 190D9 can reach 4000 fpm at 180 mph, but it is able to reach 2000 fpm at 120 mph with a very step angle of climb. The F4U1D will exceed 3000 fpm at 150 mph, but will be unable to pursue the D9 doing 1000 fpm less.
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Offline Angus

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Misterious 190 climb angle
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2005, 02:16:31 PM »
If the 190 has a higher wing loading, that is hardly possible.
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Offline bunch

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Misterious 190 climb angle
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2005, 03:26:45 PM »
I dont know about that.
the back side of the power curve is a weird place
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Offline Glasses

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Misterious 190 climb angle
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2005, 05:08:15 PM »
f4u the rear cylinder problem if i recall were in the early 190s before they added the flaps on the side exhaust stacks.
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Offline JB73

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Misterious 190 climb angle
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2005, 05:56:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MANDO
F4UDOA, you are talking about climb rate, I'm talking about angle.

Lets say 190D9 can reach 4000 fpm at 180 mph, but it is able to reach 2000 fpm at 120 mph with a very step angle of climb. The F4U1D will exceed 3000 fpm at 150 mph, but will be unable to pursue the D9 doing 1000 fpm less.
that is a really interesting thought....

i see what you are trying to say, but in AH i would think an allied plane would be able to throw 1/2 flaps or more and keep the nose up enough.


i wonder about reality though, im goint to try that in a fight in AH soon
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Offline HoHun

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Misterious 190 climb angle
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2005, 07:35:06 PM »
Hi Mando,

>Lets say 190D9 can reach 4000 fpm at 180 mph, but it is able to reach 2000 fpm at 120 mph with a very step angle of climb. The F4U1D will exceed 3000 fpm at 150 mph, but will be unable to pursue the D9 doing 1000 fpm less.

The effect is neglectable and of no tactical value.

Calculating one situation where Fw 190A and P-51 have a similar best climb rate, 15.0 and 14.7 m/s respectively, the Fw 190A can open to gap a bit (13.6 to 13.0 m/s) by flying close to the edge of the stall. The climb angle difference will increase by less than 0.5° that way.

Considering that you'll be wallowing along at the edge of a stall, this doesn't strike me as a good move.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
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Offline GScholz

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Misterious 190 climb angle
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2005, 07:36:56 PM »
I believe the pilot is mistakenly remembering the 190 for a 109. The 109 was known for being able to climb at a much steeper angle than the Spitfire, and good climb performance is the 109's speciality, not the 190's.
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