get rid of or Perk the La7!!!!!!!!!!

[Elfie]

Originally posted by Morpheus
mmmk.

So you want a lighter plane to fight, that will turn better and basicly shoot just as well?

Righton.

Keep on b1tchin.

didnt someone else already post the weights of the guns and the 3 B-20's were basically the same as the 2 Shvaks?

[Elfie]

I would like to see Kweassa's plan for perking the late war rides put in place. I think it would add alot more variety to the MA.

[Morpheus]

It takes someone of my genious to see that Extra Cannon+ammo=more weight?

[Elfie]

Originally posted by Morpheus
It takes someone of my genious to see that Extra Cannon+ammo=more weight?

Ummm read the thread.

2 x shvak weighed 42Kg each = 84Kg

3 x B20 weighed 25kg each = 75 kg

In fact the 3 cannon had ammo box/belt room for 170 rnds per gun but rarely used it mainly loading 130 to 150 rnds per gun.

I do not know the total weight of a 20 x 99 round and shell. but if it was 1.5 the weight of the projectile (97 grams) @ 150 grams then the 9kg saving between the 2 x Svak and the 3 x b20 would allow an additional 60 rounds.

I think we can assume that the weight of a 3 x b20 @ 150 rpg is pretty much the same as a 2 x Svak at 200 rpg.


The 2 Shvak loadout has 50 more rounds per gun than the 3 B-20 loadout does. The 3 B-20 loadout only adds 50 more rounds TOTAL than the Shvak loadout offers. The B-20's are lighter than the Shvaks. The difference in weight is negligble between the 2 loadouts. I have flown both loadouts and if there is any difference in aircraft performance I can't see it. The 3 B-20's however are FAR more lethal than the 2 Shvaks.

So..*genious*....what do ya have to say now?

[Morpheus]

Roughly 93 lbs or 42kg(Gun)+(160g(1rnd)*150)= 144lbs

In a fighter plane made of paper and wood, where weight, every last ounce means speed and performance be it gain or loss due to inscrease or decrease in wieght... 144lbs means alot elf.

[Elfie]

The total weights are basically the same Morpheus.

B-20  25kg per gun = 75kg TOTAL

Shvak 42kg per gun = 84kg TOTAL

Then add in 50 more 20mm rounds and the TOTAL weight difference is almost nil.

Roughly 93 lbs or 42kg(Gun)+(160g(1rnd)*150)= 144lbs

Thats the weight of ONE Shvak plus ammo. But...you need to add 50 more rounds to your equation. You used the weight for the Shvak and the ammo load for a B-20.

[victor]

While I'm no expert on the matter ,I''m spending this month learning the advantages/disadvantages of the yak 9u,which seems mostly capable of  turning  using the vert. and horiz. planes to fight against all and any plane that i've encountered .With that said I fought  1v1 against an La-7,while he the advantage in acceleration I was able to maintain the vert. and thus control the situation.As a note the book "ILLUSTRATED AIRCRAFT OF WW2" PUBLISHED by SALAMANDER PUBLISHERS  states that  while the La-7 was the chosen plane of almost all Russian aces the Yak 9u did have a 31mph speed advantage over it,and yet noone ever complaines about Yaks.I'm sure that any number of different opinions and info. can be obtaiined ,but this is my 2 cents worth ,if its worth that much.

VIC

[Morpheus]

Thats the weight of ONE Shvak plus ammo. But...you need to add 50 more rounds to your equation.

I am speaking in terms of the weight gain or loss by adding or deleting the 3 gun option IN GAME. That is what you get. 144lbs more or less on or off of the La7 if you take the 3 gun option.

150rpg..... my mistake. Give or take 100lbs. Too lazy to do the math and i got dinner waiting.

Although, you cannot refute that weight is weight and 100+lbs in a tiny, light weight fighter such as the La7 is nothing to spit at. It may not seem like much but in the air, in a paper plane, it is. And it WILL affect performance no matter how you want to slice it.

[Elfie]

Originally posted by Morpheus
I am speaking in terms of the weight gain or loss by adding or deleting the 3 gun option IN GAME. That is what you get. 144lbs more or less on or off of the La7 if you take the 3 gun option.

150rpg.....

2 Shvaks + 400 rnds = 148kg    42kg + 42 kg = 84 kg + (400 x 160g = 64kg) =148kg

3 B-20's + 450 rnds = 147kg     25kg + 25kg + 25kg = 75kg + (450 x 160g = 72kg) = 147kg


1kg (2.2 pound) difference, in favor of the B-20 package. Because of the significant weight difference between the 2 guns, there is almost no TOTAL weight difference, hence the 3 cannon advantage. There is a 2.2 lb net loss in weight with the 3 cannon option. Not a 144lb gain.

*edit* typo and added in the math

[bj229r]

Originally posted by victor
the book "ILLUSTRATED AIRCRAFT OF WW2" PUBLISHED by SALAMANDER PUBLISHERS  states that  while the La-7 was the chosen plane of almost all Russian aces the Yak 9u did have a 31mph speed advantage over it,and yet noone ever complaines about Yaks.

VIC

..Thats because in AH NOTHING has a 31 mph speed advantage over La7

[Morpheus]

I disagree on the wieght of three guns versus 2. I would continute to add to this conversation but its honestly going to accomplish nothing.

The weight on the B20s is false. 2 of them doesnt equal the same as 3 shvaks. Not even by a small margin are they close.

The ammo; you have 50 more rounds there. Or does that not count either?

Elfie, WEIGHT In a Fighter is weight. If you're arguing just for the sake of doing so (which I know you, and you most likely are doing just that) then fine. So be it. But your wrong in your thinking, and there is no escaping that fact. Sorry.

[Elfie]

Elfie, WEIGHT In a Fighter is weight. If you're arguing just for the sake of doing so (which I know you, and you most likely are doing just that) then fine. So be it. But your wrong in your thinking, and there is no escaping that fact. Sorry.

You can't argue with the math Morph.

You DONT know me, and I never argue for the sake of arguement.

The math equations are dependant on 2 things being correct. The weight of the Shvak and B-20, and the weight of each individual round. So far no one has come up with different weights for the guns themselves.

The ammo; you have 50 more rounds there. Or does that not count either?

Yes I do have 50 more rounds. The Shvak loadout is 200 rpg. (200 x 2 = 400) The B-20 loadout is 150 rpg. (150 x 3 = 450) IF the weights previously posted here are correct, even with 50 more rounds total, the B-20 package is 1kg lighter.

[Elfie]

The weights do appear to be correct at 42kg for the ShVak and 25kg for the Berezin B-20 cannons. The ShVak was a 1930's design. The B-20 was developed much later and with alot less weight.

Info on the ShVak.


http://www.ctrl-c.liu.se/misc/ram/gun-shvak20.html


Info on the ShVak and the Berezin B-20. (Along with alot of others)

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm


Weight is weight to a fighter Morph, more is bad, less is good. That goes without saying imo. In this particular case I seriously doubt that 1 kg will make any difference if flight characteristics.



*edit* adding one more source.

http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/gustin_military/fgun.html

[Elfie]

Now that I think about it.....the Soviets were quite ingenious when designing the B-20 cannon. They added 1 gun to the La-7 (for a total of 3 guns), added 50 more rounds to the package, and STILL maintained basically the same weight. Amazing.....

[Morpheus]

Weight is weight to a fighter Morph, more is bad, less is good.

In in gods name are you telling me that?

I've been the one arguing that point all along.