Author Topic: P-51 Question.  (Read 2289 times)

Offline Nefarious

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15858
P-51 Question.
« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2005, 05:03:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SKJohn
Well, it's been well over 5 posts now, so I feel safe to post this.
Wasn't the "Mustang" with the 4 20mm hispanos actually called the A-36 Apache?
Maybe one of the "Mustang" experten here could correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they were mainly used for ground operations in the MTO and North Africa.  I think it had the origianl Allison engine, and that's why is wasn't used much in the air-air and escort role.
Now if they wanted to put 4 20mm's on a P-51D pony.......


You are correct John.

The Allison was way underpowered at High Altitudes, But considereing the Altitudes of most fights here, that would probably be an advantage.
There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!

Offline Bodhi

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8698
P-51 Question.
« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2005, 06:03:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kegger26
As for the Malcolm Hood they DID in face come from the factory with the hood. They could also be retro fitted in the field.  So yes. There is a diffrence between the B & C models.


Kegger, not to be an arse, but you are incorrect in your statement regarding the "Malcolm Hood".

After the Mustang III aircraft had been delivered to England, the RAF decided that the hinged cockpit canopy offered too poor a view for European operations. A fairly major modification was made in which the original framed hinged hood was replaced by a bulged Perspex frameless canopy that slid to the rear on rails. This canopy gave the pilot much more room and the huge goldfish bowl afforded a good view almost straight down or directlyy to the rear. This hood was manufactured and fitted by the British corporation R. Malcolm & Co., and came to be known as the "Malcolm Hood". This hood was fitted to most RAF Mustang IIIs, and many USAAF Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51B/C fighters received this modification as well.

In search of a more lasting solution to the problem of poor cockpit visibility from the P-51B/C, a P-51B (43-12101) was modified with a teardrop-shaped all-round cockpit canopy and redesignated XP-51D. Having proved that the concept was valid, two P-51B-10-NAs (42-106539/106540 were completed on the production line with teardrop-shaped bubble canopies and were redesignated P-51Ds. These became the prototypes for the famed P-51D series of Mustangs.

http://www.nnb-bh.bravepages.com/p51bc.htm

As for the B/C's being different... there is NO difference what so ever, other than where they were manufactured (Dallas or Inglewood).  All the series received mods as they became available on the assembly lines.  If you want to split hair, the differences are in various variants made avaialble, their designation is not the same between the B / C series.

As for the addition of the Packard V1650-7, that was universally adopted on BOTH assembly lines.
I regret doing business with TD Computer Systems.

Offline bunch

  • Parolee
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 636
      • http://hitechcreations.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?&forumid=17
P-51 Question.
« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2005, 06:33:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SKJohn
Wasn't the "Mustang" with the 4 20mm hispanos actually called the A-36 Apache?


The cannon armed Mustang was in RAF service as Mustang Mk.Ia.  As Far as I've read the same planes (NA-91) in USAAF service had four 0.50cal browning for guns.  AFAIK, there were not any P-51d (NA-106...NA-138) in combat with the gun package you desire



Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8804
P-51 Question.
« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2005, 09:41:03 PM »
Okay guys, I'll go over this again as there seems to be some minor confusion.

Those Mustangs with four 20mm cannon were ordered for the RAF and designated by the RAF as Mustang Mk.Ia.

When the US entered the war, those aircraft not yet delivered were taken by the USAAF and designated as the P-51 (no letter identifier).

One of these served as the prototype for the Merlin powered XP-51B. Naturally, the USAF didn't think the cannon package was needed and specified four .50 cal Brownings instead (notice that the USAF kept the Brownings as the standard weapon until 1953, while the Navy demanded cannons only as early as 1946).

In addition, there was no difference between the P-51B and P-51C other than the C model being built in the new Dallas plant. Both Bs and Cs were retrofitted with the Malcolm Hood, which also required a change to the antenna, removing the fixed post behind the cockpit and installing a whip antenna far enough aft to clear the hood when fully open.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

storch

  • Guest
P-51 Question.
« Reply #34 on: March 27, 2005, 09:47:00 PM »
wasn't there a difference in the propellers?  I thought that the inglewood ponies (B) used the Ham Standards while the Dallas ponies (C) used the hollow bladed aeroproducts props.  Pilots preferred the B due to the better Ham standard prop.  the hollow bladed aeroproducts props tended to create a harmonic resonance that the pilots found un-nerving.  I recall reading that somewhere.

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8804
P-51 Question.
« Reply #35 on: March 27, 2005, 09:47:00 PM »
Okay guys, I'll go over this again as there seems to be some minor confusion.

Those Mustangs with four 20mm cannon were ordered for the RAF and designated by the RAF as Mustang Mk.Ia.

When the US entered the war, those aircraft not yet delivered were taken by the USAAF and designated as the P-51 (no letter identifier).

One of these served as the prototype for the Merlin powered XP-51B. Naturally, the USAF didn't think the cannon package was needed and specified four .50 cal Brownings instead (notice that the USAF kept the Brownings as the standard weapon until 1953, while the Navy demanded cannons only as early as 1946).

In addition, there was no difference between the P-51B and P-51C other than the C model being built in the new Dallas plant. Both Bs and Cs were retrofitted with the Malcolm Hood, which also required a change to the antenna, removing the fixed post behind the cockpit and installing a whip antenna far enough aft to clear the hood when fully open.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Guppy35

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 20387
P-51 Question.
« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2005, 11:02:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch
wasn't there a difference in the propellers?  I thought that the inglewood ponies (B) used the Ham Standards while the Dallas ponies (C) used the hollow bladed aeroproducts props.  Pilots preferred the B due to the better Ham standard prop.  the hollow bladed aeroproducts props tended to create a harmonic resonance that the pilots found un-nerving.  I recall reading that somewhere.


The Aeroproducts propeller was used on Dallas Built P51K Mustangs which were Ds with the Aeroproducts propeller.

The B/C both used the cuffed Hamilton Standard prop.

Dan/CorkyJr
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline Maverick

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13958
P-51 Question.
« Reply #37 on: March 27, 2005, 11:08:35 PM »
FWIW,

I asked for the malcom hooded 'stang about 2 years ago. It didn't happen obviously. The 20mm 'stang was a dead issue. There was a masive amount of whining from the luftwieneis and it also never "got off the ground".
DEFINITION OF A VETERAN
A Veteran - whether active duty, retired, national guard or reserve - is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including my life."
Author Unknown

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
P-51 Question.
« Reply #38 on: March 27, 2005, 11:17:41 PM »
Luftwhines against the Malcolm Hood? Never heard of that.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline TexMurphy

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1488
P-51 Question.
« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2005, 06:30:28 AM »
Im pretty sure the P51s will get a remake 3 batches from now.

I think the remake scheduel is US-German-US-German rotation with fighters comming first and then bombers.

So I would guess the next 2 up comming are..

1. P47s
2. 109s
3. P51s

Tex

Offline thebest1

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1226
P-51 Question.
« Reply #40 on: March 28, 2005, 10:15:12 AM »
I Concur

Offline Maverick

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13958
P-51 Question.
« Reply #41 on: March 28, 2005, 11:14:14 AM »
schultz, I didn't say the luftweenies whined about the hood. They did so about the four 20mm's. Those were 2 seperate requests and not both by me.
DEFINITION OF A VETERAN
A Veteran - whether active duty, retired, national guard or reserve - is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including my life."
Author Unknown

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
P-51 Question.
« Reply #42 on: March 28, 2005, 01:04:09 PM »
Ok, I can’t remember that either, but it is more likely. You can have your four-cannon Mustang if I get my Dora-11 or Dora-13 ;)
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline TDeacon

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1553
P-51 Question.
« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2005, 09:02:40 PM »
Pyro is favorably inclined towards Malcolm hoods, I believe.  I recall him saying he also liked the look of the Malcolm hood P51B, and would consider it.  I will search for the thread, and insert a reference to it here...



He said it in this thread:  http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=119934&highlight=Malcolm+hood



We'll see if we can get it fixed up before release. If not, we'll get to it sometime after that. At some point, I would like to add an Allison Mustang or A-36 and convert the B to a Malcolm hood.

__________________
Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations

« Last Edit: March 28, 2005, 09:07:13 PM by TDeacon »

Offline Guppy35

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 20387
P-51 Question.
« Reply #44 on: March 28, 2005, 09:20:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TDeacon
Pyro is favorably inclined towards Malcolm hoods, I believe.  I recall him saying he also liked the look of the Malcolm hood P51B, and would consider it.  I will search for the thread, and insert a reference to it here...



He said it in this thread:  http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=119934&highlight=Malcolm+hood



We'll see if we can get it fixed up before release. If not, we'll get to it sometime after that. At some point, I would like to add an Allison Mustang or A-36 and convert the B to a Malcolm hood.

__________________
Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations



Not that "The Deacon" would have ANY interest in a Malcom hooded P51B :)

Dan/CorkyJr
Yeah it's lousy, but it's one of the first profiles I ever did.
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters