Author Topic: Late Me 109 G & K engine settings  (Read 11336 times)

Offline Kurfürst

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« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2005, 11:17:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by pasoleati
Kurfürst, source for the 300 h TBP for later war Merlin is RRHT book "Merlin Perspective", page 40. The 480 hrs figure is based on Dan Whitney´s Vee´s for Victory. I will check the exact page later tonight.
[/B]

Paseolati, it`s very interesting how much TBO was written in paper, but virtually all sources indicate that NONE of the ww2 aero engines ever fullfilled those paper specs... so what are we comparing, paper specs of the Merlin to practical specs of the DB?

The qoute I showed you that neither Merlins lived up to their expected TBO time, and in fact schwarze mann showed some actual number stating 60% of the Merlins never managed to operate until their given TBO time, whatever high it was, it was not achieved in practice. Soviet veterans also tell of the Merlin not being any special in this regard.

Frankly I don`t see much, if any difference between the Merlin and the DB 605. Specs seem to be 200-300 hours for each type. When you really want to compare like with the like, a specific TBO for Merlin of the 2000 HP range should be compared to the DB 605D`s TBO, isn`t it? It doesn`t make any sense to me make a comparison between an early war low powered engine with half the power and load, and a late war one.


I am not suggesting the Merlin was a super engine, but it was far better than the DB 605.

Frankly, I have never seen much underlining this claim. The DB was a better wartime engine for practical purposes imho. It managed to give a steady power output at all altitudes, and eventually even with a single stage blower it had MUCH better altitude output. The altitude performance of the 109/Spit speak for themselves. It could be changed and maintainced quickly and easily, it was compact, and not a massively overcomplicated piece like the Merlin with extreme boosts, complex systems like two staged superchargers, intercoolers, high-pressurized coolant system and extremely bad fuel economy that basically meant that any plane that mounted had to carry huge amounts of fuel to get a useful operational range. When inspection time came, then what, the whole engine was swapped with a new one in 15 mins, no effect on operational levels, and THAT IS what counts in practice.

BTW, you mention the oil pressure specs for the DB were low, but I just checked and found that they were effectively the same as the Junker engines. I guess you mixed up something (max/min pressure?).

All in all, I cannot agree with you, but you made some very good and interesting points.
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Offline MiloMorai

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Late Me 109 G & K engine settings
« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2005, 12:09:50 PM »
Thanks to your good buddy SkyChimp Barbarrosa Isegrim some

8th AF average flight and overhaul times:

1945 1st quarter

V-1650
flying hours: 302
labor hours: 251

V-1710
flying hours: 362
labor hours: 134

R-2800
flying hours: 580
labor hours: 147


1945 2nd quarter

V-1650
flying hours: 200
labor hours: 259

V-1710
flying hours: 387
labor hours: 153

R-2800
flying hours: 500
labor hours: 241

edit: removed tbo
« Last Edit: April 02, 2005, 10:39:32 PM by MiloMorai »

Offline pasoleati

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« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2005, 12:34:50 PM »
Milo, the data is also on Whitney. And MMH/FH isn´t really comparable to TBO.

But, I will be replying in full later. In fact, I already did, but somehow this SOB board logged me out while I was typing so the effort was fruitless. Fu**! At this stage I can only say that the minimum oil pressure at 2600 rpm for the 605 is 2.6 kg/sq.cm, while Jumo 211F/J´s figure at the same rpm is 5.5 atü. And the 605 does also have pressurized cooling system, Kurfürst!

And K, your fuel consumption claim is pretty far off the mark. Will provide details later.

Offline Angus

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« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2005, 02:26:44 PM »
Lol, paseolati has the stuff!!!

Anyway, Barbi:
"I wonder what Angie has to say on that, he usually places anecdotal evidence on the top, well, or maybe he just does that in selected cases. "

This was regarding the P47 right, - P&W.
Okay, what the pilots said, they loved the robust ENGINE!!!
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2005, 10:21:48 PM »
pasoleati, right.:o

Offline gripen

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« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2005, 08:50:18 AM »
Well, I don't know even if the supercharger gear of the DBs was a good design; large parts of the advantages of the hydraulic coupling were wasted due speed controll system and oil cooling was a problem. In addition throttle system and intake manifolds were not so good (the throttle system was  redesigned for the last models but probably none reached service).

gripen

Offline pasoleati

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« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2005, 11:28:09 AM »
Do you refer to the fact that the boost pressure was not only regulated by the throttle, but a separate boost valve as well? In the 605A the blower drive had two pumps. One supplied oil to the coupling all the time while the other was partially aneroid controlled. Up to 2.1 km altitude the second pump supplied only cooling oil to the coupling. Starting from 2.1 km the oil supply to the coupling itself increased until at 5.7 km all oil was supplied to the coupling. Basically it means that at low altitude considerable power was wasted on driving the impeller when the variably coupling could have allowed full throttle operation, if properly executed.

Offline Kurfürst

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« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2005, 12:46:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by pasoleati
At this stage I can only say that the minimum oil pressure at 2600 rpm for the 605 is 2.6 kg/sq.cm, while Jumo 211F/J´s figure at the same rpm is 5.5 atü.


Why do you think is it a problem that the minimum oil pressure that the DB could sustain is lower value than the Jumo?

Quote
And the 605 does also have pressurized cooling system, Kurfürst[/B]


Yes most ww2 fighter coolant systems had, however the Merlin went extreme on pressurized system, making it more vulnerable to coolant leaks than others.

Quote
And K, your fuel consumption claim is pretty far off the mark. Will provide details later. [/B]


I am most positive it`s not. Compare the DB with the Merlin at a similiar power output, and you will see that it consumes 30-50% more fuel to get the same output.

Ie. you can compare the the Merlin 66 at +25lbs boost, it developed ca. 1940-2000 HP this way, with a fuel consumption of 197 imp. gallons per hour, or 895 lit/h.
At +18, the engine developed 1680 HP at SL, at 150 gallons/h... 681 lit/h.

The contemporary DB 605D, operating at 1.98ata and developing 2000PS (ca 1970 HP) had a fuel consumption of 650 lit/hour, 37.5% more efficient than the Merlin. The 605AM developed 1800 PS at 1.7ata, at 560 liter per hour consumption.

"No replacement for displacement" - running on such extreme boost as the Merlin did to compansate for it probably lead to very bad thermal effiency and such huge consumption. Just look at the range of 109s/Spits.


Starting from 2.1 km the oil supply to the coupling itself increased until at 5.7 km all oil was supplied to the coupling. Basically it means that at low altitude considerable power was wasted on driving the impeller when the variably coupling could have allowed full throttle operation, if properly executed.

That would require another variable speed for the 1st gear, making the whole system extremely complex and prone to mishaps. It didn`t worth it. At SL the DB 605A-1 developed 1475 PS, at 2.1km 1550 PS. The difference is from the loss of fixed 1st speed, and it`s only 75 PS, even less on later models, 30-40 PS or so. On the 601s, 10-20 PS maybe....
Why bother to complicate things, when the possible gain is a minimum amount of power at very narrow - and of little practical combat use - altitude range.


Well, I don't know even if the supercharger gear of the DBs was a good design; large parts of the advantages of the hydraulic coupling were wasted due speed controll system and oil cooling was a problem.

:eek: Try to be honest for once, you know that the coupling`s heating problems were solved with the 601 family already. Besides, if it wasn`t any good, was there any better system (Jumos would be strong candidates, though)?

The Merlin looses like what, up to 200-250!!! HP :eek: between MS and FS gear, because it`s just a orthodox fixed gear supercharger system that just throws power out of the window on a whole 11 000 ft altitude range... certainly Daimler Benz would be mad to go on that road, when it had a system that could save 95% of this loss..


In addition throttle system and intake manifolds were not so good (the throttle system was redesigned for the last models but probably none reached service).

Intake manifolds were not so good? Because? The DB 60x series intake manifold was used on tenthousends of planes and even the FW 190D and TA 152 used practically the same design.

The system relied on the same principle as the Mustang`s radiator scoop, ie. pushing the intake away from the fuselage to minimize surface turbulance and drag. It was also very good being very close to the s/c itself, just 30 cm or so route for the air to make inside, internal losses were minimized. Far better than on the Merlin, when the air was sucked in on the chin, creating turbulance on the whole fuselage already, and loosing much effiency as it had to be lead through all under the engine in a 2m+ long ducting to the supercharger.
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Offline Angus

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« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2005, 01:29:22 PM »
Well, as far as I know, where it comes to the fuel consumption, the Spit I and the 109E had almost identical range, be it time or kilometers. If anything, early Spits seem to have ventured further in their missions. Calculate and post at will, but this seems to stick quite well.
And, for what it's worth, I still remember Rall being sour on the engine durability, - late war. The bottom line from the pilot's end was that the engine did not last very well, - starting to lose power very early in the service life.
Since I didn't take notes about it, it will just stay ... as an anecdote. But I will ask anyway, and maybe get an explanation about what was meant there.
My theory is still this.
DB could be boosted up to god-knows-what ATA, with service life falling down very rapidly. Late war Germany also had troubles with maintenance and materials as well as fuels, so up-juicing would not always be that practical.
So, cutting it short, AFAIK Barbi's numbers of performance of this or that ATA seem to be on the line, the question remains how common was it's application in RL, and what was the output of the engine after "raping" it a couple of times.
FYI, A Spit I was already being run to some 3000 hp in 1939....
(hope I remember that one correctly, - can dig it up)
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline gripen

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« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2005, 02:30:47 PM »
pasoleati,
Jepulis, in addition between the first FTH and second FTH (or a bit below second FTH) the speed of the supercharger is controlled still only by the aneroid. So the supercharger never operated at optimal speed below the second FTH and faster the plane went the worse was the efficiency of the supercharger (below 2nd FTH).


Quote
Originally posted by Kurfürst

:eek: Try to be honest for once, you know that the coupling`s heating problems were solved with the 601 family already.


Well, as pasoleati noted they had to use the second oil pump all the time for cooling, not very efficient solution.

Quote
Originally posted by Kurfürst

The Merlin looses like what, up to 200-250!!! HP


Efficiency wise the fixed gear system is better below the 1st FTH and above 2nd FTH. Between these variable speed system is better but the marginal is not very large, less than 100hp in the maximum case.
 
Quote
Originally posted by Kurfürst

Intake manifolds were not so good? Because? The DB 60x series intake manifold was used on tenthousends of planes and even the FW 190D and TA 152 used practically the same design.


The reason for the different compression ratios in the cylinder banks was simply not so good intake manifold system, small pipes and valves etc. after supercharger. The Jumo 213 was throttled with much better system.

Quote
Originally posted by Kurfürst
The system relied on the same principle as the Must...


Intake manifolds are between the supercharger and the cylinders or do I use wrong terminology?

gripen

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #40 on: April 03, 2005, 02:35:43 PM »
Is this more dishonesty by Barbarosa Isegrim?

The DB605L @ 1.75ata, 2800rpm SuNot @ SL for 1700PS had a consumption 520l/h PLUS 150l/h of MW50. So the total consumption was 670l/h or 147 Imp gal/h.

Quote
I am most positive it`s not. Compare the DB with the Merlin at a similiar power output, and you will see that it consumes 30-50% more fuel to get the same output.

Ie. you can compare the the Merlin 66 at +25lbs boost, it developed ca. 1940-2000 HP this way, with a fuel consumption of 197 imp. gallons per hour, or 895 lit/h.
At +18, the engine developed 1680 HP at SL, at 150 gallons/h... 681 lit/h.

The contemporary DB 605D, operating at 1.98ata and developing 2000PS (ca 1970 HP) had a fuel consumption of 650 lit/hour, 37.5% more efficient than the Merlin. The 605AM developed 1800 PS at 1.7ata, at 560 liter per hour consumption.


Almost the same consumption numbers.:eek:

How very nice of him to forget that MW50 was needed to get that 2000PS @ 1.98.:rolleyes: If 150l/h of MW50 is required, and it could be more, the DB605D's total consumption to get that 2000PS is now at least 800l/h.

More dishonesty, the DB605AM which required 150l/h of MW50. So now its consumption is 710l/h.

http://mitglied.lycos.de/luftwaffe1/aircraft/lw/DB605_varianten.pdf
« Last Edit: April 03, 2005, 02:51:22 PM by MiloMorai »

Offline Kurfürst

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« Reply #41 on: April 03, 2005, 05:27:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by gripen
pasoleati,
Jepulis, in addition between the first FTH and second FTH (or a bit below second FTH) the speed of the supercharger is controlled still only by the aneroid. So the supercharger never operated at optimal speed below the second FTH and faster the plane went the worse was the efficiency of the supercharger (below 2nd FTH).
[/B]

Funny, blowing a baloon again. Most DB curves show the effect for faster airspeeds, yet NONE show increasing loss between MS and FS. I`d like to see something that actually underline your postition.

Quote
Originally posted by gripen
Well, as pasoleati noted they had to use the second oil pump all the time for cooling, not very efficient solution.
[/B]

pasoleati didn`t say such, you put the word into his mouth, he said just that the second oil pump, which`s flow controlled to 2nd speed, ALSO provided some cooling as well. Typical gripen riff-raff.


Quote

Efficiency wise the fixed gear system is better below the 1st FTH and above 2nd FTH. Between these variable speed system is better but the marginal is not very large, less than 100hp in the maximum case.
[/B]

One has to look on a Merlin and DB power curve to see the actual difference.

ad 1 : Between MS and FS Gear
A fixed gear system like the Merlin wasted like up to 250 HP between 1st and 2nd FTH.A variable gear system like the DB`s wasted only up to 50 HP between 1st and 2nd FTH.
These are actual figures, and taken from Merlin 66 and DB605A power curves.

ad 2 : Below MS and above FS.
Gripen tries to make an excuse for the Merlin`s fixed gear s/c by pointing to the 'advantage' it held over hydraulic clutch system; a usual arguement among spitdweebs, but it`s only sand in the eye. Hydraulic clutches come with some slip, ca. 3.5% in the case of the DB. This leads to some power loss, so the comment is technically correct.
The trick is failing to mention that this power loss is negligable, with the largest DB supercharger with twice the capacity of the ordinary DB 605 it only amounted a peak of 16 HP... which translates to about -8 HP lost because of slip on most DBs. WOW. DB was really stupid, giving up this enormous 8 horsepower for +200 horspower gained between the 1st and 2nd speed, at the most common combat altitudes.

To translate Gripens nice words into common, the DB`s technology of course, did not give advantage, as it was 'not very large power gain' between FS and MS (+200 HP compared to the Merlin), but came with losses (a whole ca. -8 HP) above and below FS and MS. :rolleyes:
 

Quote
The reason for the different compression ratios in the cylinder banks was simply not so good intake manifold system, small pipes and valves etc. after supercharger.
[/B]

Oh of course, how could we forget, it`s simple as always, any design feature of the DB is because it`s so bad, hear oh hear Gripen`s judgement!

It`s seems gripen never heard of the reason why the DB was designed with assymetric compression ratios. This feature is used by some high-tech engines even today, to smoothen the running. A rather elegant solution.

But what am I arguing with gripen, he posts such every time, how was this and that bad and the other excellent, trouble is, we never see anything to appear behind the statements. It`s just GripenWorld.


Milo you are extremely convincing. Keep up the show.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2005, 06:01:08 PM by Kurfürst »
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Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #42 on: April 03, 2005, 05:54:17 PM »
Personal attack

Last warning
« Last Edit: April 04, 2005, 11:01:55 AM by Skuzzy »

Offline Kurfürst

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« Reply #43 on: April 03, 2005, 06:02:15 PM »
I think this show displayed some of your qualities rather than mine. :D
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Offline pasoleati

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« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2005, 06:23:57 PM »
Kurfürst, the second pump pumped ALL of its output to ccol the coupling between sea level and 2.1 km. However, this is inevitable in such coupling so here DB need not be blamed. However, the intake piping is an entirely different thing. With the DB design, there was allways restriction in the intake piping up to FTH at even 1.42 ata. To get best out of the variable coupling, the slippage should have been directly controlled by the throttle lever with aneroid assited altitude compensation. This would have allowed deleting the second throttle plate and it would have also allowed unresticted air flow at all settings above 1.0 ata.