Chicken Little

[Blue Mako]

Mitsu's departure has got me thinking: What's ruining the gameplay for so many vets?  I myself took a 18 month sabbatical and am finding it hard to get back into a groove in AH2.  Why is that?  Am I (and the other vets) like Chicken Little, running around saying the sky is falling?

IMO there are two basic problems with AH MA gameplay as it stands at the moment.

(1) No fear of virtual death

(2) Horde warrior mentality

I'd like to see two changes made to correct this:

(a) Spread the fields further apart again.  Having fields less than a sector away from each other promotes nothing but take off, spray and pray, die, rinse-and-repeat gameplay at zero feet altitude all the time.  Not everyone in the game wants a deathmatch insta-spawn furball all the time.


(b) Set a time limit for respawning in fighters or bombers (not for gvs or goonie birds).  Even a 1 minute delay between returning to the tower (after death/capture/ditch not a successful rtb) and taking off would make most players a bit more careful about rtb'ing.  This would remove a lot of the kamikaze mentality.

Anyways, that's my suggestion for making the MA a little more vet friendly.  There are some of us who'd like to see a return to the science of air combat, not just the science of spit/nik/la7 point-the-canopy-at-them-and-pull furballing.  Maybe TOD will make some of these changes but I'd rather see the MA get back to a more reasonable place to fly and fight.  We are flying virtual models of WW2 aircraft after all, not Crimson Skies fantasy fighters.  Why make the MA a complete fantasy?

Flame away.

[humble]

I think you hit the age old question...."the good old days" are always better somehow. I burned out on AW (AOL)...so I went to "Big Week" AW then on to the next AWIII...in 99 came here during open beta...bet I've quit 5 or 6 times since 99.

From my perspective the problem has always been the growing scale of the game. In effect its becoming more and more lifelike...and less like the "knights of the skys" I "grew up" with.

This last trip thru I've focused on mid war stuff flying the -1 hog Ki-61 etc....

Now I think I'm going back to the begining...I stopped flying spits in 1995....and april will be the return of the barbiefire. I used to be a decent T&B/dual type...I've become a more proficient "killing machine" but lost a bit of that pure furball capability.

Back to the future.....

[SuperDud]

I think just as many of the vets would state that the problem now a days is the fact that everyone flies 20k, BnZ's and as soon as you get to a CoE position they tuck tail and run. Not saying you're wrong or I am, I think it's just peoples veiw points. Lately it seems to me, 80% of the aircraft I've ran into are either 190's or La7's. If they do engage, it's only with more alt and only to BnZ. When they lose adv., they run. I feel they are afraid to lose their virtual plane. Once again, I don't believe either of us is wrong or right, just different playing styles. I do agree with your horde mentallity 100%. It's getting pretty bad. What's worse, recently when 1 horde hits another, it leaves and goes to an empty feild??? I also wouldn't be against your time penalty, although there's to many furballers out there that would find this unexceptable. I think it's been discussed before and pretty much got shot down.

[Nath_____]

I, on the other hand, I'm having the most fun time in AH since the first year of final release in 2000.

[Golfer]

I've been finding that the personalities in the game are a big contributor to my not having fun on the scale we had in Air Warrior.  I'd like to make a few points.

We had one map in Air Warrior which reflected the particular theater of battle in which you wanted to play.  They were fairly realistic in their layout, though fictional enough in their layout to be effective for virutal gameplay.  Nobody ever complained about "give us another map" and so forth.  The AW maps were not small, but they were not HUGE like Trinity or AKdesert.

I liked having airfield names.  Numbering them is very efficient and easy across the board, but I just liked having field names as opposed to numbers.

The ability to have more than one gunner was a HUGE fun and exciting draw.  The "Deathstar" was a way for several members of the same squadron to have "intercom" and have a blast while gunning one single gun point of a B-17.  With the gross overwhelming of bombers when attacking a base, this cannot really be accomplished simply because you need all those guns converging to cut apart the often many attacking airplanes at once.  I cannot recall ever really being "gangbanged" while in cruise or over the target to the point of being absolutely overhwelmed with airplanes.  Nowhere did you have 6-10 airplanes attacking that one B-17.

The overall lack of "Channel 1" (Now 200) attitude of smack talk which is not in good spirits and confrontation.  I remember we [~U.S.M.C.~] had a legendary rivalry with the MAWs of C land.  We "hated" each other and constantly sought out each others squadrons to fight.  We did not really hate them, we respected them as great opponents who made the game fun.  Even in the heat of battle against our biggest rival, a "bingo" or  "winchester" call was honored and the fight was knocked off.

were aplenty.  

Sadly, 95%-99% of what makes AW and AH different animals was the people.  Very little if anything can be done to bring the things that made me love spending time in the game because the big deal isn't the software.  Sure I'd like to see the field spaced farther apart, the ability to have more than one gunner (I'd like to have this more than anything!) and a return to the good 'ol days.  But I don't think they'll be back.  At least there are the fond memories.

[ALF]

I beleive that TOD will solve many of the issues with the MA and overal gameplay.

1)There isnt much (pronounced there ain none) "fear of death".  I have the time of my life flying the 262 because I have to be REAL CARFUL, I only gots 450 perkies ya know.

2)The overal cohesion of each team is so volitile that some times its amazing how well everyone works together, but more often then not, its a FlusterCuck.  

3)I see the same 5 planes all dang day and night

4)Even if there is a mission, there is no real reward for accomplishing that mission.


TODs structured missions, rewards/rank system will solve all of this.  AND as if that isnt good enough, the MA will be here to play around in.  I only see one HUGE drawback, and that is that most team players will spend lots of time in TOD, and the MA will become an exponential of its pre-existing flaws listed above.

[eilif]

since ma is designed to be fun for many skill levels and interests i think some GAME MODIFIERS would be a great way of stirring things up.  

  wouldnt it be fun to have a MOTD that would say what modifiers were on for the said map?

  eny is a game modifier to stirr things up when it gets stagnant. and helps level the playing field. tho i dont think it  should be on all the time to keep the idea fresh.

  what about some more?  say  " planes are limited to early war for this game" {the game being a map reset} some have suggested that ma2 be set for this tho that doesnt seem necasary and splits the player base up.

  "planes are limited to country specific plane sets for this game"

  "axis vs allies set up"  

 the modifers can still be fantastical in nature and not scenarios like ct already offers but some limitations and game play elements that can be turned off and on for each game would make it alot funner.  


 there are alot of different posibilities that could really stir things up, the endless ffa setting we have now gets old fast.
     
 as blue said hopefully tod will save the day.   all i know is some veriety will make things alot better for ma.

[DipStick]

Originally posted by Blue Mako
Mitsu's departure has got me thinking: What's ruining the gameplay for so many vets?  I myself took a 18 month sabbatical and am finding it hard to get back into a groove in AH2.  Why is that?  Am I (and the other vets) like Chicken Little, running around saying the sky is falling?

IMO there are two basic problems with AH MA gameplay as it stands at the moment.

(1) No fear of virtual death  True

(2) Horde warrior mentality True

I'd like to see two changes made to correct this:

(a) Spread the fields further apart again.  Wrong  Having fields less than a sector away from each other promotes nothing but take off, spray and pray, die, rinse-and-repeat gameplay at zero feet altitude all the time.  Not everyone in the game wants a deathmatch insta-spawn furball all the time.

If you don't want to furball and would rather spend your time climbing, drop back a field or two and have at it.

(b) Set a time limit for respawning in fighters or bombers (not for gvs or goonie birds).  Wrong Even a 1 minute delay between returning to the tower (after death/capture/ditch not a successful rtb) and taking off would make most players a bit more careful about rtb'ing.  This would remove a lot of the kamikaze mentality.

A "time limit" would kill the game, or should I say ALOT more people would leave.

Anyways, that's my suggestion for making the MA a little more vet friendly.  There are some of us who'd like to see a return to the science of air combat, not just the science of spit/nik/la7 point-the-canopy-at-them-and-pull furballing.  Maybe TOD will make some of these changes but I'd rather see the MA get back to a more reasonable place to fly and fight.  We are flying virtual models of WW2 aircraft after all, not Crimson Skies fantasy fighters.  Why make the MA a complete fantasy?

Try the CT, I've heard it's "quite a reasonable place to fly and fight". Also hope you enjoy TOD!

Flame away.

Just MHO.

[Blue Mako]

Dipstick, thx for the reply.  Allow me to expand a little on where you think I've gone wrong with my suggestions.

(a) Yes, I can spend time climbing and enter the fight higher if I take off a couple of fields back.  But how about everyone else?  All the fight is on the deck because no-one else is bothering to do anything except level off at 2000' and head straight to the field they can already see after they take off from their own.  If I kill them, I don't have time to regain E, they just replane and are back in the fight in a few seconds.  Rinse-spin-repeat.

Oh and I'm not opposed to furballing, I just want to see a few changes to make it a higher skillset required than the current culture demands.  How many people bother to learn ACM currently?  Only the minority IMO.  I'm just trying to think of ways that trend can be reversed.

(b) Many, many, many online games have a time interval between dieing and respawning.  This does not limit the popularity of any of them.  This would prevent vulching (can't vulch if the vulchee doesn't up), prevent the pork and auger technique (who wants to auger and then wait before upping).  It will also encourage more realistic engagements (gotta think "can I make it home still or I'll have to wait a little while to reup").  Most of all it will prevent the guy I just killed reupping instantly and returning to the fight while I'm still trying to shoot down his teammate.  Yes this will lower the number of kills you can rack up quickly but how many pilots in WW2 got to respawn after being shot down?  This isn't a request for total realism, just a tip of the hat towards it.

JUST SAY "NO" TO QUAKE HIGH!

[DipStick]

Originally posted by Blue Mako
Dipstick, thx for the reply.  Allow me to expand a little on where you think I've gone wrong with my suggestions.

(a) Yes, I can spend time climbing and enter the fight higher if I take off a couple of fields back.  But how about everyone else?  All the fight is on the deck Maybe because the rest of us don't care to waste time climbing. You are asking everybody to fly your way because you 'apparently' are having a hard time finding targets at 20k+. Sorry but the game has evolved into a "fun" game now (Thank God). Come on down grab a turner and join in! because no-one else is bothering to do anything except level off at 2000' and head straight to the field they can already see after they take off from their own.  If I kill them, I don't have time to regain E, they just replane and are back in the fight in a few seconds.  Rinse-spin-repeat.

Oh and I'm not opposed to furballing Yes you are., I just want to see a few changes to make it a higher skillset LOL required than the current culture demands.  How many people bother to learn ACM currently? 95% of the furballers I know could write a book on ACM. Only the minority IMO. That's because you are at 20k+ looking for some noob to pick. I'm just trying to think of ways that trend can be reversed.

(b) Many, many, many online games have a time interval between dieing and respawning.  This does not limit the popularity of any of them. You have no way of proving this statement. This would prevent vulching (can't vulch if the vulchee doesn't up), prevent the pork and auger technique (who wants to auger and then wait before upping). Nothing will ever "prevent" these. It will also encourage more realistic engagements (gotta think "can I make it home still or I'll have to wait a little while to reup").  Most of all it will prevent the guy I just killed reupping instantly and returning to the fight while I'm still trying to shoot down his teammate.  Yes this will lower the number of kills you can rack up quickly but how many pilots in WW2 got to respawn after being shot down?  This isn't a request for total realism, just a tip of the hat towards it.

JUST SAY "NO" TO QUAKE HIGH!

Just MHO.

[Blue Mako]

Dipstick you have your opinion but please don't tell me what my opinion is.  Nowhere have I said that I want to be at 20k picking off newbies.  This is not meant to be a "furballers vs the world" thread.  I'm after a better balance for all camps and a way of promoting a more realistic game.  The latest maps are a product of the furballers whining that it took them too long to get to the fight.  Some people want to be able to land after a fight.  Some people want to have a decent 1v1.  Still others want to blow up toolsheds.  Balancing all of these into a single game is probably well nigh impossible but at the moment the only people pleased seems to be the furballers IMO.

I've played hours and hours of BF1942, Counter Strike, Joint Ops, Raven Shield etc and to me CS was the best.  It was also the game that had 1 life per round and then you had to wait before you could respawn.  And guess what?  It is the most popular online FPS so far.  At the moment AH is just like playing a conquest game on BF1942 or Joint Ops.  Fly around at tree top height and just frag as many ppl as possible.  Respawn and do it all again.  Alternatively, if you can't get frags, just run away from everybody and capture the undefended base.  I'd like to have an AH where you can get a break from the deathmatch/conquest cycle.  In an ideal world it may be possible but...

In essence, what I'm looking for is "The Good Fight" (TM).

To me that can't exist in a world where your opponent has zero incentive to fly well, or even to survive and where any dogfight has a lifespan of about 30 seconds before a load of cons from the base just 10 miles away from yours come over to cherry pick the engaged sucker.  Call that a furball, call it bad SA, whatever, I just call it a horde mentality.

Leviathan's "Spits and N1Ks" movie is a great example of this to me.  Loads and loads of newbies with no idea plowing into the fight over and over at low alt with no E, only to be smacked down by a group of vets, over and over.  Lev and the others have good SA and are very good at shooting.  The others in the film are just baby seals.  Is it satisfying to club them?  You bet.  Is it a test of your abilities, I don't think so.

Maybe to the furballers getting a lot of easy kills in a big FFA is "TGF" but I'd much rather see some good ACM on both sides and a close won fight, win or lose, is the most satisfying any day.

Anyways, you have your opinion, I have mine.  Just don't try to tell me what my opinion is, I work that one out for myself thankyou.

mako
A member of the coalition against Quake High.

[DipStick]

Sorry if the truth hurts but that's life.

I have great fights quite often. Otherwise I would and will cancel my account. I love running into Stang or Vudak and many others. That is what keeps me coming back. We have some GREAT fights lasting 2-3 mins or longer. When my pulse is pounding and palms sweating after one good t-n-b fight I know why I stay. It's these fights that make the game 'worthwhile' to me. That and the fun of flying with guys I like and are who like minded.

If you fly for a week at under 8k and don't find any "Good Fights" (TM) noone will fault you for leaving. I know I would.

[glennco]

I have a possible cause to the changes in the populous of the game.  It is simply the availablility of cheap bandwidth, and the growing popularity of online gaming that has come with it.

Now the population of AH has definitely increased beyond an original group of hardcore enthusiasts.

[Cobra412]

Why is it everytime someone immediately says "your just opposed to furballing"? I'm curious but who are you to claim you know anything about how someone thinks and what they are a opposed to in the first place?

A book on virtual ACM I'm sure with virtual aircraft modeling in mind and keeping in mind it's only a virtual death. Because it's only a virtual death their tactics can have as many flaws as they'd like because there is nothing at stake. I'm just curious but what documents have they written and what credible agency has blessed these documents? Oh I forgot your talking about "virtual" ACM and virtual deaths which means little to nothing since it's now the "fun" game that we can thank God for.

Why is it always "looking for a newb to pick"? If that were the case then there are plenty of them on the deck playing the quake version of Aces High. Better yet there are places in which you can just vulch a field and pick both newbs and vets.

Since you want to make this into a "astronaut" "dweeb" picking debate what makes a furballer stand out? Is it because they are involved in a gaggle engagement where there are so many contacts that it's easy to get lost in the crowd? Or is it because they are relying on the inexperienced flyers in the gaggle engagement to get their kills to make them feel almighty? Or is it because everyone is in the tightest turning aircraft with the biggest guns spraying at anything that's red and happens to fly in front of them?

Again back to saying you know best. I'm just curious you say nothing will prevent the augering porking dweebs or the vulchers? Is that purely on your extensive background knowledge of the players and their thought process? Are you an doctor? Or did the fact that punishment for wreckless behaviour can be a deterent? Or did the fact that the lethality of AAA can be increased which will extremely limit the amount of vulching occuring on a daily basis?

I would have figured with having so many friends that have extensive knowledge in devising and implementing ACM and tactical doctrines coupled with your medical background this would have been easy problem for you to solve.

[Cobra412]

So one second your ribbing Mako because with your extensive medical background you can establish he's having a hard time finding fights at 20k and he's now wanting people to fight "his" way.

Maybe because the rest of us don't care to waste time climbing. You are asking everybody to fly your way because you 'apparently' are having a hard time finding targets at 20k+.

Then you turn around and again use your medical background to deteremine that if he can't find a "good" fight by your definition below your predetermined altitude that no one would fault him for quiting because you would do the same yourself.  Is that because people wouldn't be fighting "your way" and "you" wouldnt' be happy with it?

If you fly for a week at under 8k and don't find any "Good Fights" (TM) noone will fault you for leaving. I know I would.

 Hypocrite?