Author Topic: WMD report  (Read 1037 times)

Offline ASTAC

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1654
WMD report
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2005, 07:17:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SaburoS
No, it was wrong. Period.
It was based on lies and propaganda.
We had a choice to wait to see if in fact there were WMD's in existence but our administration pushed for the invasion anyway.
Thing is, we can't say "Oops, my bad" and undo what we've done. Can't bring back the dead or undo the permanent wounds. Rebuilding Iraq to its prewar condition is going to take a lot more money, a lot more. It's going to cost more lives as well.


If we restored Iraq to prewar condition..it would be a sad shortfall on our part.

Do you know how much we wasted since gulf war 1 trying to enforce the useless UN sanctions? I know I wasted at least 14 months of my life being bored guarding Oil smugglers that Saddam was responsible for. NOt to mention risking my life boarding those ships for inspections. He would force merchant ships that made deliveries to Iraq..to load up on as much oil as they could carry..sometimes an unsafe amount..and then force them out of port at gunpoint.

Or maybe we should have let him go on killing the Kurds...and thousands others. And no matter what anyone else says..no one will ever convince me that he was not helping terrorists in one way or another.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2005, 07:22:30 PM by ASTAC »
That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety

Offline Elfie

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6143
WMD report
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2005, 07:51:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SaburoS
No, it was wrong. Period.
It was based on lies and propaganda.
We had a choice to wait to see if in fact there were WMD's in existence but our administration pushed for the invasion anyway.
Thing is, we can't say "Oops, my bad" and undo what we've done. Can't bring back the dead or undo the permanent wounds. Rebuilding Iraq to its prewar condition is going to take a lot more money, a lot more. It's going to cost more lives as well.


Being wrong is not the same thing as lying.

That said, they still havent found the stuff that was unaccounted for. VX gas, VX gas precursors, etc.

It wasn't wrong to invade. The only reason that Bush gave for the invasion that didnt pan out was WMD. America is at war, and will be for long after we pull out of Iraq. Get used to it.

*edit* The whole world waited from the Gulf War in 1991 until America invaded Iraq a second time. How much longer do you think we should have waited for Saddam to finally come clean on his WMD programs? We already waited over a decade.

At some point action has to be taken.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2005, 07:55:25 PM by Elfie »
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Online Tumor

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4305
      • Wait For It
WMD report
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2005, 10:06:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Elfie
Being wrong is not the same thing as lying.
 


Your right.

But lets not forget, Saddam didn't exactly bend over backwards trying to show he WASN'T pursuing WMD, or had it.  He had countless opportunities and methods of doing so, he just didn't, and used our own worries as a bluff... unfortunately someone finally decided to call him on it, and by then what he did was way too little way too late.
"Dogfighting is useless"  :Erich Hartmann

Offline Eagler

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18971
WMD report
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2005, 10:25:33 PM »
short sightedness on your part

Iraq IS the future of the middle east

those fallen in the process
"Masters of the Air" Scenario - JG27


Intel Core i7-13700KF | GIGABYTE Z790 AORUS Elite AX | 64GB G.Skill DDR5 | 16GB GIGABYTE RTX 4070 Ti Super | 850 watt ps | pimax Crystal Light | Warthog stick | TM1600 throttle | VKB Mk.V Rudder

Offline Silat

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2536
WMD report
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2005, 10:37:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
short sightedness on your part

Iraq IS the future of the middle east

those fallen in the process



>>S<<

Now when is someone going to get fired for this messup? Tenet quit but got awarded the highest civilian award. Does anyone actually think no one should be held accountable?
+Silat
"The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them." — Maya Angelou
"Conservatism offers no redress for the present, and makes no preparation for the future." B. Disraeli
"All that serves labor serves the nation. All that harms labor is treason."

Online Tumor

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4305
      • Wait For It
WMD report
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2005, 11:18:53 PM »
Fired based on what?  Intelligence is not an exact science.  Few good (smart) analysts use words like "is, will, or has" without prefacing with words like "likely, probably and possibly".  You take available evidence and make educated guesses... sometimes your right, sometimes wrong.  The intel community did have reason to believe Saddam was pursuing WMD, and his own history only helped levy the assumption.  What the community did NOT have was proof otherwise.  Want to fire someone?  Fire Saddam.
"Dogfighting is useless"  :Erich Hartmann

Offline Sixpence

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5265
      • http://www.onpoi.net/ah/index.php
WMD report
« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2005, 11:24:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Silat
Does anyone actually think no one should be held accountable?


We are, the people, we(majority) backed the decision. We are accountable. What are we going to do? You cannot unring a bell.
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline JB88

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10980
WMD report
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2005, 12:07:33 AM »
"War against a foreign country only happens when the moneyed classes think they are going to profit from it. Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac."

- george orwell
this thread is doomed.
www.augustbach.com  

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. -Ulysses.

word.

Offline Elfie

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6143
WMD report
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2005, 03:33:42 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tumor
Your right.

But lets not forget, Saddam didn't exactly bend over backwards trying to show he WASN'T pursuing WMD, or had it.  He had countless opportunities and methods of doing so, he just didn't, and used our own worries as a bluff... unfortunately someone finally decided to call him on it, and by then what he did was way too little way too late.


To many people forget this imo. The international community gave him well over a decade to come clean about all his WMD programs. He had every opportunity possible to show he had abandoned his WMD programs......instead.....aft er 9-11...he calls America's bluff.....DUMB MOVE Saddam!!
« Last Edit: April 02, 2005, 03:39:50 AM by Elfie »
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline Elfie

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6143
WMD report
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2005, 03:35:19 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Silat
>>S<<

Now when is someone going to get fired for this messup? Tenet quit but got awarded the highest civilian award. Does anyone actually think no one should be held accountable?


Should they be? Iirc weren't the Intel services budgets cut during the 90's? If so, how do you blame the Intel guys when they most likely dont have the funds they need to get  the job done?

I agree, most of the time people should be held accountable for mistakes of this magnitude. However, consider this. America's Intel services werent the only ones mistaken worldwide. Many were mistaken, including possibly the best Intel guys in the world, the Israelis.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2005, 03:42:23 AM by Elfie »
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline Nash

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11705
      • http://sbm.boomzoom.org/
WMD report
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2005, 03:50:11 AM »
Elfie, I don't really know you... but I recognize the style.

You're not so much trying to convince any of us, as much as you're trying to convince yourself.

Let go. Then come back. Then talk.

Offline Elfie

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6143
WMD report
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2005, 04:06:07 AM »
Silat,

You can google for all this stuff I am about to talk about if you wish, or you can search this BBS for threads where I have previously posted links.

Saddam admitted to having certain amounts of various chemical weapons, facilities for making said weapons and X amounts of precursors plus various delivery methods.

UN weapon inspectors want to see the VX gas, Saddam tells them he dumped some of it out in the desert. When the inspectors ask to see the dump site, sure enough 2 different chemicals were found. Both are used in the production of VX gas, however, it takes 3 chemicals to make VX gas and there is NO trace of the 3rd chemical at the dump site. Iirc 1.5 tons of VX gas is missing. 1.5 tons of a chemical that takes one tiny drop to kill you.

After Gulf War 1 Saddam claims 550 artillery shells filled with mustard gas have been misplaced. How do you misplace 550 artillery shells?

Precursors for VX gas are missing, several hundred tons of them iirc. Saddam had no explanation for where those went.

More than once he sent the UN weapons inspectors packing, or refused to allow them access to various facilities.

Even the UN admits to these discrepancies.

We did find evidence that SH was trying to keep his WMD programs alive, evidence was found that small R&D teams were still working. This was on a much smaller scale than the intel community thought before the Iraq war.

We did find two terrorist training camps in Iraq, one in the north and the other outside Baghdad. We thought he was aiding terrorists and he was, although his links to Al-Qaeda are most likely non-existant.

How do you deal with a guy like this Silat? Bear in mind, we gave him over a decade to cooperate fully.

Bush declared war on terrorism after 9-11 and Iraq wont be the end of this war.
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline Elfie

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6143
WMD report
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2005, 04:08:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
Elfie, I don't really know you... but I recognize the style.

You're not so much trying to convince any of us, as much as you're trying to convince yourself.

Let go. Then come back. Then talk.


hmmmm.....I think you are out in left field on this one Nash :)
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline Nash

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11705
      • http://sbm.boomzoom.org/
WMD report
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2005, 04:08:32 AM »
scratch, claw, scratch, claw.... grasp.

Offline Elfie

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6143
WMD report
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2005, 04:14:23 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
scratch, claw, scratch, claw.... grasp.


eh?
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.