U-Boat + V2

[Holden McGroin]

So GS, you're claiming that the V2 was sucessfully submarine launched?

I find that hard to believe.

[Nashwan]

Look at the first post in this thread ... it flew.

Those pictures are test firings of 15cm and 30cm artillery rockets from the deck of a U-boat. They are nothing whatsoever to do with the V-2.

See http://www.prinzeugen.com/V2.htm

Some sources claim a container for underwater transport and launching of a V-2 was built, but there's no evidence it. It certainly never got as far as the testing stage.

[eddiek]

I think Simaril and GS are just not on the same wave length.
Yes, GS, the V2 flew.  It did NOT, however, as I believe Simaril is trying to say, launch from a submarine.  
And I'm not trying to insult your intelligence by pointing that out.
Sim, GS did point out that the 1940's technology was not sufficient for the task of guiding a sea launched V2.  Or did I misinterpret that, GS?
That was what I got out of your statement.
C'mon guys, this is all theoretical stuff.  
Sure, the Germans were pretty high up there on the technology side of things.  After all, their leaders were planning on a war YEARS before anyone else was, so their minds were geared toward weaponry.  They had almost a decade head start on the Americans alone.  While the Germans and Nazis were gearing up for war, here in American, we were still struggling to recover from the Great Depression and military spending was just plain pathetic.  But when the US geared up for war, we caught up REALLY fast, and surpassed anyone's expectations.
IMHO, yes, we do "owe" them some respect for coming up with the ideas for some of our modern day weaponry, but that is all.
Without Britain and the US and the victors of WW2, those ideas would not have become reality.
It took the resources and economies of the Allies to take the German ideas and make them into real, live weapons.
The Germans also contributed in other areas, such as the medical field, but the "means" of their contribution and research go beyond the limits of humanity and don't bear further discussion.

[GScholz]

Originally posted by Nashwan
Those pictures are test firings of 15cm and 30cm artillery rockets from the deck of a U-boat. They are nothing whatsoever to do with the V-2.

If that is the case then I stand corrected.

Originally posted by eddiek
Sim, GS did point out that the 1940's technology was not sufficient for the task of guiding a sea launched V2.  Or did I misinterpret that, GS?

As long as they could get it into the air without it toppling over it would be no more difficult to guide than its land launched brethren. The real trick is to get an accurate launch position for a U-boat at sea. A radio location system could be used, but accuracy would obviously be less than on land.

[Simaril]

'Nuf said.

[Pongo]

"Yup, the Germans had no shortage of ideas, but unless you can take that idea from the drawings on paper and make it a reality, a working weapon, what good is it?
"

The germans were actually more advanced as engineers then scientists. The nazis hated scientists. Hence the massive exodus of them.

Thier head start in the war was not as signifigant in their head start in educating their population and establishing higher education in thier country. They were far advanced in that and the nazis were taking advantage of leads that were established in the late 1900s.
So the germans didnt lack the engineering to make thier designs reality, they lacked the time and resources because of the effects of misguided procurment policies and mobilization policies and later because of severe shortages due to blockade and interdiction and the demands of the war effort.
Being in a desperate situation they came up with some desperate and brilliant ideas. Being bombed into the stone age and out numbered on every front they had severe problems in realizing the designs or producing them in any numbers. The absolute rarity of even a few alloys that the allies had in abundence was very signifigant in many of these programs.

Catch 22. Thier desperate situation and limited resources pushed them to devise excellent ideas for weapons. Thier desperate situation and limited resources ensured they would not deploy most of those weapons in any meaningful way and they increased the preasure their enemies felt to finish the germans off utterly.

The V2s were nasty weapons but anyone that thinks that they were going to be effective delivering 2000 pounds at a time into a general city area in changeing the effect of the war is misguided. And the resources used to make such weapons that deliver HE at 1000 times the cost of a bomber would really have been better spent on weapons like the type XXI Uboat that really had the capability to influence the war.

[Kurfürst]

"The V2s were nasty weapons but anyone that thinks that they were going to be effective delivering 2000 pounds at a time into a general city area in changeing the effect of the war is misguided. "

Cost of a V-2 was ca. 2000 US dollars.

Cost of a B17 was ca 250 000 US dollars.

A B-17 carried ca the same amount of HE onto the target, and calculating with a low 5% loss/sortie, it cost 0.05x250 000 = 12 500 USD.

[mora]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
Cost of a V-2 was ca. 2000 US dollars.

Source? I'd call BS on this one, but I don't have any evidence to back it up.

[john9001]

the B17 was reusable.

[indy007]

Originally posted by john9001
the B17 was reusable.

Assuming the $$ values are correct (even tho $2000 seams awfully low)... you'd have to fly a B-17 125 missions to get the same value out of it.

[BUG_EAF322]

Cost of a V-2 was ca. 2000 US dollars.

They had free labour and 100000 marks was worth about 1 dollar.

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by mora
Source? I'd call BS on this one, but I don't have any evidence to back it up.

How much do you expect for a single use rocket, compared to a 15 ton heavy bomber with a dozen machineguns, radios, navigational equipement, and four large volume 1000+HP piston engines? Not to say training costs for a crew. I haven`t even added fuel costs, how bout ca. 1000 gallon/sortie for a B-17? How much high octane aviation fuel costs compared to... uhm... industrial alcohol?

I hesitate to write that down, but.... a V-1 cost only 500 bucks.

[Angus]

The Spitfire costed 5000 quid
Anyway, if you assume that a P51 had similar costs, it would haul 2000 lbs further than a V-2 with very much more accuracy
Then look at the delivery records of some aircraft, i.e. the Mossie.

BTW, many many V-1's (hundreds) were destroyed in a single precision raid. Just stumbled across this.

[Nashwan]

The German government paid something over £6000 in 1945 terms for each V-2, that's without fuel, warhead, transportation or launching costs.

That's about the price of a Spitfire. (And the costs are not directly comparable, the Germans were using slave labourers and concentration camp inmates to build the underground factories are parts for the missiles.

RV Jones, who analysed German technology during the war for the British government, pointed out that the V-2 would never have been built in Britain because it offered so little in return for it's vast cost.

[rshubert]

Originally posted by GScholz
What part of "inertial navigation system" did you not get? The V2 was not a dumbfire rocket aimed at launch. The trajectory was even corrected in flight by a radio navigation system.

The V2 was one of the most complicated machines built during the war.

 

Uhhh....no.

Trajectory was NOT adjusted in flight.  There was no radio navigation system deployed, and that's not even arguable.  The radio on the V-2 sent a signal that told the engine to cut off at a predetermined point in flight.  This was only used during testing, as the engineering team developed a replacement system that did the job based on altitude.

The V-2 used an inertial GUIDANCE system, which is very different from an inertial NAVIGATION system.  The V-2 didn't know where it was when launched.  The operators aligned the missile with the great-circle course to the target, spun it up, and launched it.  At the altitude determined by the ballistic trajectory to the target, the engine cut off, and the missile travelled like an artillery shell to the target.

It was a very advanced piece of technology, but a waste of resources.