Author Topic: U-Boat + V2  (Read 6519 times)

Offline GScholz

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« Reply #60 on: April 06, 2005, 03:40:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by rshubert
Uhhh....no.

Trajectory was NOT adjusted in flight.  There was no radio navigation system deployed, and that's not even arguable.  



Uhhh ... yes.

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One very unique structure related to the Wizernes project is in the small French place of Roquetoire, about 8-9 km away from the small town Wizernes and southeast from St. Omer. In this fortress-like concrete structure (medium sized compared to other German works), there was established an ultramodern, ground-based, radio beam remote V2 guidance system. The system received the code name "Umspannwerk C" (transformer station C). This apparatus was conceived and built for guide-beam flight correction of the V2 rocket during launch. Thus, one can see the direct connection between the Wizernes and Roquetoire projects.

The Leitstrahlstellung radio beam at Roquetoire, for use specifically in conjunction with the firing bunker at Wizernes, was the only application of this concept put into action by the Germans. None of the other rocket-bunker projects were designed to use radio beam guidance. The bunker would have provided protection, support and supplies to the vehicles and crews operating the Leitstrahl equipment and vehicles. It would have been a safe place for storage and repair, and ease of deployment during operations. The use of the beam system was so secret, that only the planners and personel at the two facilities knew of its existance. It was shown that constant advances by the Allies in the use of "jammers" to break the German beams, could have easily countered the guidance signal. Even though the Leitstrahlstellung radio beam operation would last only about a minute during a V2 launch and any jamming attempts would have required a known frequency of the beam, the Germans still kept this device top secret. In fact, the allies never discovered this system.

To hit a target within a 250 meters radius and 250 km's away, the side deviation of the flightpath of the V2 had to be not bigger than 1:1.000, and a curve of some arc minutes. Deviations in the height corner of 45 degrees were of small influence but, the speed at burn stop had to be within 0.5 % exact. That is why, high criteria was required for the steering gear of the rocket. In practice, they could reach a corner of plus or minus 1 degree, so that, in a shooting distance of 250 km, at least 50% of the A4 fell in an line of 10 km wide. To enhance this they already started devoloping (during the first developing phase of the A4), the "Leitstrahl" and radio measurement to electronically adjust a V2 already in flight.

The development of the instruments was given to the navigations department of the firm "Lorenz". They delivered "Leitstrahl-(LS)-facheranlage Viktoria" appearing in Nov. of 1940 as a 500 watt adjusting transmitter for the UKW beaken. This transmitter had a frequency of 45 Mhz and was probably devoloped from a landing beaken. It was a "Phasedreiglieder" twice with a deflector contained a horizontal dipole antenna, that was set up at a distance of 8-15 km's behind the launchpad. One of the antennas was direct connected to the transmitter and the other was attached to a "drehkondensator" in a tastverhaltnis 1:1 and 30 times per minute changed in phase. You can see the opposing V2 rocket dipole attenna attached on later production V2 pictures, coming out of the trailing edge of the rocket fins. The plans for this bunker were drawn up in September of 1943.

Synchronous switching of the modulation tone was to take place between 5-7 kHz. Two fan-shaped signals, with different modulation tones, formed the beams of only 0.0125 degrees. These would overlap in places, resulting in an amplitude difference of the modulation of about 5%. The system had to be adjusted very exactly, since the strength of the main beam in relation to the inversly formed counter beam only amounted to 2 degrees.


http://www.v2rocket.com/start/deployment/leitstrahl.html
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Offline Kurfürst

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« Reply #61 on: April 06, 2005, 04:10:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan
The German government paid something over £6000 in 1945 terms for each V-2, that's without fuel, warhead, transportation or launching costs.That's about the price of a Spitfire.


The number I have seen for it is 40 000 Reichsmarks from memory. Hardly 6000 pounds. The V-1 cost from 2500 to 10 000 RM.

EDIT : Looked on the site and it`s states :

"For the V2 , 6967 kg raw materials was needed (without the explosives and devices) of which 3112 kg thin sheet metal (various thickness) e.g. the outer skin. Average price of a V2 was 119600 Reichsmark. "

40 000 RM was stated in various articles, and in 'Warfare of the 3rd Reich' though.

The cost of a Spitfire in 1940 was 45 000 USD, that`s hardly = ca 2500 US bucks.


Quote
RV Jones, who analysed German technology during the war for the British government, pointed out that the V-2 would never have been built in Britain because it offered so little in return for it's vast cost. [/B]


Maybe that`s Mr. Jones is a bit sorrow, and this is his way to tell Britain didn`t had the scientific capacity to develop such an advanced weapon.
Not to say the research put into it would pay out very well if the war would last longer, ie. given that the worlds first SAM AA rocket, the Wasserfall, was based on the V-2. With the Wasserfall, it`s not an exagrevation that the large bomber formations would disappear overnight.

EDIT : This is also from the site. I wish Mr. Jones would see it. :

"Some feel that this whole operation was as much about convincing the German rocket scientists to come to Great Britain and work for the the British in the development of a rocket programme, as it was about testing the V2 systems. The British and the Americans began fighting over the German scientists even before the wars end. The Americans had agreed to "lending" many of the top German rocket personnel for the Backfire tests. The Americans found that the British were trying to convince the Germans to stay after the tests. It took a considerable amount of prodding by the U.S. War Department to gain the return of many Germans to American custody. "

So dumb, fighting so hard for something they never wanted (as per Nashwan). :p
« Last Edit: April 06, 2005, 04:17:17 PM by Kurfürst »
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Offline john9001

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« Reply #62 on: April 06, 2005, 05:20:20 PM »
""if the war would last longer"" how many time have i heard that old song?

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #63 on: April 07, 2005, 02:13:27 AM »
Quote
Maybe that`s Mr. Jones is a bit sorrow, and this is his way to tell Britain didn`t had the scientific capacity to develop such an advanced weapon.


Now you are ascribing your narrow nationalistic views to Jones. If he had been as blindly, fervently "patriotic" (you are Hungarian, not German, right?) as you, he'd have assumed the Germans couldn't build the rocket, or the blind bombing beams, or any of the other things they did build, and he'd have failed utterly at his job. As it was, he did his job rather well, and assesed German technology with a remarkable degree of accuracy.

Quote
EDIT : This is also from the site. I wish Mr. Jones would see it. :

"Some feel that this whole operation was as much about convincing the German rocket scientists to come to Great Britain and work for the the British in the development of a rocket programme, as it was about testing the V2 systems. The British and the Americans began fighting over the German scientists even before the wars end. The Americans had agreed to "lending" many of the top German rocket personnel for the Backfire tests. The Americans found that the British were trying to convince the Germans to stay after the tests. It took a considerable amount of prodding by the U.S. War Department to gain the return of many Germans to American custody. "

So dumb, fighting so hard for something they never wanted (as per Nashwan).


See, again your assumptions are leading you astray.

I pointed out that Jones said the V-2 was a waste of resources as a weapon. You first claim that's through blind prejudice, then imply it can't be true because the British tried to get German rocket scientists after the war.

You are overlooking the logical conclusion, that the British admired the rocket itself, without thinking it was a practical means of delivering less than a ton of HE.

In fact, Jones was not blindly prejudiced against the V-2 as you assumed. Here is what he has to say about it in his book, Most Secret War:

Quote
upper atmosphere will in itself be a major factor in experimental meteorology, and sooner or later someone will seriously try to reach

the moon—and succeed. Military applications are bound to be made, whatever the limits imposed by treaties, and we should do well to

keep an eye on the possibilities. If we were to allow ourselves more liberty of conjecture, we might consider using atomic fuels to

drive an exhaust of hydrogen molecules, or perhaps lighter particles, giving an entirely different order of performance.

It is an often stated requirement that a weapon of war should have a probable error comparable with its radius of destruction, so that

a few shots would ensure the obliteration of the target. Practical weapons seldom approach this ideal, although in the future it may

be attainable through homing devices. With a very long range rocket we may have to accept errors, and it may be easier to increase the

radius of destruction by the use of new types of explosive based on the fission of the uranium atomic nucleus. If such an explosive

becomes practicable, it will probably have a radius of destruction of the order of miles, and on this account alone it might best be

carried in some unmanned projectile, of which the rocket would be a particularly suitable type by virtue of its relative immunity from

interception and of its potentially better accuracy at long ranges compared with pilotless aircraft. Speculation of this kind is

fascinating, but can well wait for a paper at a later time when it is nearer realization. Reviewing therefore what we have seen to be

reasonable extrapolation from present practice, a two-stage rocket of about 150 tons starting weight could deliver a 1 ton warhead to

nearly 3,000 miles range, with a probable error of 10 miles in range and 3 miles in line. This might be a feasible weapon for

delivering a uranium bomb, should such a bomb become practicable. It would be almost hopeless to counter by attacks on the ground

organization, because the increased range would allow an almost unlimited choice of firing site, while the trajectory could be so

varied that the firing point could not be deduced without sufficient accuracy for countermeasures. Production would probably take

place underground. At the moment such a rocket could not be intercepted, but by the time it becomes a serious possibility it may

itself be a target for smaller defence rockets fitted with predictors and homing devices: but these would depend upon adequate

warning, and the defences might also be saturated by a salvo of long range rockets.

The protagonists for the development of very long range rockets would probably have, in Britain at any rate, to meet the criticism that it would not be worth the effort expended. The A4 has already shown us that our enemies are not restrained by such considerations and have thereby made themselves leaders in a technique which sooner or later will be regarded as one of the masterpieces of human endeavour when it comes to be applied to the exploration of Space. As it is mainly with our enemies that Intelligence is concerned, rather than with our own views on military economics, it suffices that the long range rocket can be developed much further. In the light of this fact, we must watch.


As you can see, Jones was looking very much to the future, to intercontinental missiles, moon landings, space exploration. He saw the V-2 as a hopeless waste of resources for lobbing less than a ton of explosives, and as you can see that wasn't based on a silly attitude that it must be bad because it wasn't invented here.

Jones saw the V-2 for what it was, a brilliant example of technical progress, a huge waste of resources in the use to which it was put.

Quote
Not to say the research put into it would pay out very well if the war would last longer, ie. given that the worlds first SAM AA rocket, the Wasserfall, was based on the V-2. With the Wasserfall, it`s not an exagrevation that the large bomber formations would disappear overnight.


Again, the technology was good, the application of it for throwing rather small bombs on London was a waste. Speer banned production of the Wasserfall whilst V-2 production continued, because there weren't enough resources for both projects.

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The number I have seen for it is 40 000 Reichsmarks from memory. Hardly 6000 pounds. The V-1 cost from 2500 to 10 000 RM.

EDIT : Looked on the site and it`s states :

"For the V2 , 6967 kg raw materials was needed (without the explosives and devices) of which 3112 kg thin sheet metal (various thickness) e.g. the outer skin. Average price of a V2 was 119600 Reichsmark. "


As well as pure raw materials, you have to look at the electronics (Speer is on record as saying the U-boats and Luftwaffe were starved of electronics because the V-2 took so much of the electronic industry's production), the huge underground factory where they were built (also intended for an underground refinery, but the refinery had to be delayed until the V-2 production facilities were built), the huge consumption of liquid oxygen, the transport and launching costs.

I have yet to see any serious author sugest the V-2 was cost effective )as opposed to the V-1, which was)

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #64 on: April 07, 2005, 03:40:19 AM »
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source
The V-2 ballistic missile (known to its designers as the A4) was the world's first operational liquid fuel rocket. It represented an enormous quantum leap in technology, financed by Nazi Germany in a huge development program that cost at least $ 2 billion in 1944 dollars. 6,084 V-2 missiles were built, 95% of them by 20,000* slave labourer in the last seven months of World War II at a unit price of $ 17,877. As many as 3,225 were launched in combat, primarily against Antwerp and London, and a further 1,000 to 1,750 were fired in tests and training.


20,000 deaths...Each V-2 cost 3 slave labor lives
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Offline Kurfürst

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« Reply #65 on: April 07, 2005, 03:42:34 AM »
Quote
Again, the technology was good, the application of it for throwing rather small bombs on London was a waste.


Well considering it caused a massive panic in Britain, certainly it paid of better than building heavy bombers at even larger cost in both material and human life, which failed to effect morale negatively (it lead to fiercer resistance from the Wehrmacht, though).

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I pointed out that Jones said the V-2 was a waste of resources as a weapon. You first claim that's through blind prejudice, then imply it can't be true because the British tried to get German rocket scientists after the war.


Perhaps it would be a waste of weapon for Britain, which didn`t have the scientific resources to develop it, nor the industrial resources to produce it. I think it`s fairly typical British attitude, trying to downplay what they actually envy and can`t have. They had to rely completely on American shipments, after all.

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Speer banned production of the Wasserfall whilst V-2 production continued, because there weren't enough resources for both projects.


You might want to find a source for that. It`s a very intersting claim in view that the Wasserfall was continously developed until the end of the war, ie. test launches were conducted in even February 1945, and that it`s costs were marginal compared to the V-2, being much smaller and using lower tech, cheap parts.

Quote
As well as pure raw materials, you have to look at the electronics (Speer is on record as saying the U-boats and Luftwaffe were starved of electronics because the V-2 took so much of the electronic industry's production),


Interesting claim again, source? As for raw materials, the V-2 required a 3 tons of steel, and given that Germany was the second largest producer of the steel at that time with 30 million tons per year, it hardly bothered them.

Never heard of the LW having problems with equipping electronics, ie. there were over 2000 Würzburg D radar sets around in 1945 only to guid the LW`s AA guns, U-boots wasn`t on short ever on active and passive radar sets etc. I can barely think of how would the low-tech electronics used in a few thousend V-2s effect the high-tech electronic industry utilized by the LW`s radar equipment.

Also of interest, that as per Ian Hogg, the total labour hours to produce a V-2 was 4000h, in comparision of 2000 required by the V-1... and no less than 2500 to manufacture just the wing of a Spitfire or 109.

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the huge consumption of liquid oxygen, the transport and launching costs.


Huge costs? For like, getting a trailer in position with a few dozen man as crew? How do these cost relate to the supply train required by a heavy bomber?

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I have yet to see any serious author sugest the V-2 was cost effective )as opposed to the V-1, which was)


Simple comparision of the much lower resources required by the V-2 compared to a conventional bomber show this. The V-1 which was cehaper, had also lower success rate (about half)
« Last Edit: April 07, 2005, 03:53:52 AM by Kurfürst »
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #66 on: April 07, 2005, 03:43:35 AM »
Neart technology no doubt, but basically useless as an explosive lobbing weapon in WW2.

Heck, even conventional SCUDs are pretty useless and they were basically highly developed descendants of the V2...

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #67 on: April 07, 2005, 04:48:00 AM »
"Massive panic"?

LOL we are being melodramatic aen't we Barbarossa Isegrim. :rolleyes:

"which didn`t have the scientific resources to develop it, nor the industrial resources to produce it."

Bulldung. The Brits showed their practibility, again. They had axial jet engines running in 1940 but knew they could not be developed, unlike the Germans, as a useful engine before the war ended. They consentrated their industrial and scientific resources on reality, not some 'pipedream' fantasy world the Germans lived in, for winning the war.

Barbarossa Isegrim your bigoted ant-British bias is showing, again.

Offline Kurfürst

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« Reply #68 on: April 07, 2005, 06:14:43 AM »
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
They had axial jet engines running in 1940 but knew they could not be developed, unlike the Germans, as a useful engine before the war ended.  


Very true. Britain had no hope of building a usuful axial jet (which Germany did), produce it in large numbers (which Germany did), and get it into operation in numbers (which Germany did).

The 'practical' way they followed with lower-tech centrifugal engines ensured that no British jet served any useful purpose during the war, except for chasing a few unmanouvering drones.
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Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #69 on: April 07, 2005, 06:55:22 AM »
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Originally posted by Kurfürst
Very true. Britain had no hope of building a usuful axial jet (which Germany did), produce it in large numbers (which Germany did), and get it into operation in numbers (which Germany did).

Is that why ~8000 Jumo 004s were produced but there was less than 100 operational Me262s, and typically less, at any one time out of the ~1400 Me262s produced. One only has to look at a loss list for the Me262 and note the high number lost to engine related problems.

The 'practical' way they followed with lower-tech centrifugal engines ensured that no British jet served any useful purpose during the war, except for chasing a few unmanouvering drones.

Yet the Soviets used these 'low' tech engines in the MiG15 and MiG17 well into the '60s. Those low tech British engines were producing much more power than the 'high' disaster Jumo 004. The Brits were in touch with reality unlike the Germans who pinned there hopes of winning on their desperation 'pipe dreams'.

There was no real need for Allied jets as the mighty LW was being cleared from the skies by Allied piston engine.


Offline rshubert

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« Reply #70 on: April 07, 2005, 12:16:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
Uhhh ... yes.






uhhhh....no.  The Leitstrahlstellung system was a modified radio beacon that was intended to provide boost-phase guidance for the V2, but it was never put into use except in tests.  Your source is the only one that makes that claim that I can find.  All other sources state that the V2/A4 used a series of three gyroscopic inertial guidance systems, the first maintaining a vertical orientatition during the beginning of the boost phase, the second tipping the rocket onto its trajectory toward the target, and the third used as an accumulating accelerometer to send a cutoff signal to the engines when the pre-programmed speed was acheived.

If there had been an external signal, it would have been less accurate, since there were considerable variations in boost performance of the engines.  The downrange impact point was set by the engine cutoff speed, not on the actual trajectory (although, in a perfect world, they would be the same).  The crossrange impact point was determined by carefully aligning the rocket with the great-circle course to the target with an optical sight, just like a cannon or a howitzer is aimed.

Furthermore, there ARE NO STEERING CONTROL SURFACES ON THE ROCKET FINS.  Steering was accomplished by a series of gyroscopically-controlled vanes in the exhaust path of the rocket motor.  No motor, no steering.  After motor cutoff, the V2 was a very expensive artillery shell.  It was subject to the same wind and aerodynamic effects a bullet or shell undergoes during the reentry ad non-powered terminal phase of flight.  That's one of the main reasons the suckers often missed by several miles.

Offline rshubert

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« Reply #71 on: April 07, 2005, 12:31:25 PM »
quote:

The V-2 ballistic missile (known to its designers as the A4) was the world's first operational liquid fuel rocket. It represented an enormous quantum leap in technology, financed by Nazi Germany in a huge development program that cost at least $ 2 billion in 1944 dollars. 6,084 V-2 missiles were built, 95% of them by 20,000* slave labourer in the last seven months of World War II at a unit price of $ 17,877. As many as 3,225 were launched in combat, primarily against Antwerp and London, and a further 1,000 to 1,750 were fired in tests and training.

You're claiming that the construction cost of a V-2 is 2000, 4000, 6000, or whatever in USD.  But hte development cost has to be counted, too.  If the program cost 2 Billion USD, and 6084 were produced, then the development cost of each V2/A4 was 328,731 USD.  The material cost is insignificant in comparison.

To put that 2 Billion USD into perspective, that is a bit more than the 1.8 Billion USD that were spent on the Manhattan project, which produced the atomic bombs used against Japan.  The three bombs produced all worked perfectly, and the two launched against Japan effectively destroyed their targets.

Now, who got more bang for the buck?  :D

Offline rshubert

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« Reply #72 on: April 07, 2005, 12:33:18 PM »
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
20,000 deaths...Each V-2 cost 3 slave labor lives


Actually, it was more like 6 deaths/missile.  The staff was 20,000, but the turnover was...large.



shubie

Offline GScholz

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« Reply #73 on: April 08, 2005, 01:56:01 AM »
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Originally posted by rshubert
Furthermore, there ARE NO STEERING CONTROL SURFACES ON THE ROCKET FINS.  Steering was accomplished by a series of gyroscopically-controlled vanes in the exhaust path of the rocket motor.  No motor, no steering.


I posted this image earlier in the thread, what part of "external contol vanes" do you not understand?





Here thay are labeled "air rudders"...



Also note the "Guiding-beam and radio control gear".



Here's a photo clearly showing the external control surfaces:




I don't know what source you are using Shubie, but I'm afraid it sucks.
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Offline Kurfürst

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« Reply #74 on: April 08, 2005, 07:09:23 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by rshubert
quote:

The V-2 ballistic missile (known to its designers as the A4) was the world's first operational liquid fuel rocket. It represented an enormous quantum leap in technology, financed by Nazi Germany in a huge development program that cost at least $ 2 billion in 1944 dollars.
[/B]

Sorry, you won`t convince me about that number 2 BILLION USD is a vast amount, iirc something like 1/4-1/3 of the entire UK`s spending on war... Two billion USD would be something like 10 billion Reichmarks, now compare to that the Bismarck battleships were built for 200 million each...

Sorry, you won`t convince me that a development programme would ever cost the 50 Battleships... .



BTW, I just looked up Ian Hogg, and he states that an actual underwater launch of a V-2 from an U-boot was actually made on the Baltic.
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