Need some help

[Elyeh]

Anyone wanna give me some advice about turning?

Seems that I get out turned all the time. If I get some one on my tail I just cant seem to shake them or get back around b4 I die.
I'm flying a Seafire IIc. Do you turn with just the stick, or do u use the rudders incongunction with the stick? I've been trimming rudder, elev but I just cant seem to get it.

Just seems like everyone is moving way faster than I am.
I watch people do all kinds of turns and things but when I try to try out all I get is warning buzzers and blackouts LOL

Also if you look at the e6b about a plane I see +16 boost , +4 boost etc....what does this mean?

and whats WEP stand for?  I've hear alot about it but not sure what it means.

Any advice is greatly appreciated and I'm in the TA quite often trying to learn to get better, but I'm scratchin my head here.

Thanks in advance

"StickPig"

[KSINC]

First, let me say that I am new to AH so if I am wrong about anything here somebody please correct me.

WEP = War Emergency Power. It's a small boost of power, though how much and for how long I'm not sure. I just figured out what it was yesterday.

I am having the same problem turning as you are, though I'm in a Spit9. It seems that as soon as I start turning I get the stall warning. I talked to Fuzeman in TA last night to try and figure out what the best speed was for turning in a Spit9. He said it was somewhere between the Minimum Verticle Manuevering Speed and Full Speed flying level. The Minimum Verticle Speed for the Spit seems to be 200 - 210 knots. Between 200 - 210 I can just make it over the top in a loop or Immelman. Anything below 200 and I stall and spin. Testing in TA last night I found it hard to keep my speed at 200 in a turn.

We need to hook up in TA and just fly in circles trying to get behind the other, without actually shooting. Just try and get this turning thing down. I should be on tonight, probably after 8:00PM Eastern Time.

KSINC

[TexMurphy]

Few things on turning.

1. Turning does not mean only horizontal movement.

For example if you are in a SpitV (Seafire) and Im in a Yak9U then you do turn better then me right? Well yeah in a sustained horizontal turn, yes. Does that mean you can loose me of your tail by just going into a horizontal turn? No.

If I instead of doing a flat turns do a High YoYos then I will be able to get in and out of your six and stay with you through your turns. My High YoYo has a tighter turn radius then my flat turn plus it allows me to store energy (as I go vertical). This way I keep my speed up and Im able to close the offset distance from you the High YoYo creates.

IF I do this and you are trying to out turn me through flat turns it will appear as Im constantly on your six. Im not Im just very often on your six..

2. Instant turn rate vs sustained turn rate.

The Spits retain their energy really well which means that they retain speed in their turn really well. You dont loose much speed when you are turning (relativly to other air crafts). This means that the instant turn rate is quite wide.

Though the spit has a very tight sustained turn radius. Meaning the turn where you can keep going and going in circles without stalling it. You can do this on very low speeds and hence very tight.

A plane like the say 190A5 has a very good instant turn rate. It will bleed energy faster then the spit in a tight turn and turn tighter inititally then the spit. But inorder to make a sustained turn it has to keep quite high speed and hence its not gonna have as good of a sustaind turn rate.

So what does this mean?

Even though you are in one of the best turnign planes there are planes that can out turn you, initially.

3. Merge and Opening manouver.

Propably the most important part of combat and where noobs are beat in 9 out of 10 fights.

First rule dont ever go for a head on shot in the merge. If you do you will loose position for your opening move, not to mention that you endup in a cointoss situation where its a 50-50 chance that you die of the bat.

Instead go UNDER the enemy. Go under his nose. This is good for two reasons.

1. IF he wants to take a head on shot on you he has to either a) pull negative Gs (cant aim as he will red out) or b) roll inverted to take the shot. If he has rolled inverted he cant go high on his opening move, more on that soon.

2. You gain vertical separation for your opening move. To understand this lets go on to the opening move.

Your opening move should always (if you have the speed) be UP. Most new pilots always go in a flat turn after the merge. You should go immelman instead (half loop and roll).

Reason to this is:

*Flat turn burns energy.
*Immelman stores energy (speed converted to altitude)
*Flat turn takes longer time to complete then immelman
*Immelman gives you high position on the enemy if he flat turns.

If you after a merge do a flat turn it can feel like the enemy has out turned you with "magical turn rate" but what he has done is an immelman, gotten position on your high six with more energy.

If the enemy has good instant turn rate he can take a lead turn on you and wax you in no time.

Back to vertical separation.

If both pilots go immelman in the opening move, as they should. You want to be "inside" his immelman. If you get inside his immelman you will be able to get a gun solution on the exit of the immelman. Plus that you will be able to pick the angles to get in on his six if you dont waste him there.

Tex.

[Murdr]

Good post Tex.

The question regarding turn control:  Yes, your primary control in the 'turn' is with the stick (elevators), aelirons can change the course of your turn, which can make the difference in a fight, but technically cant increace your rate of turn.  Rudder control, like aelirons, can be very useful in a fight.  In regards to a sustained flat turn they wont make your turn 'tighter', but when you are riding the edge of the envelope,  they can be helpfull in keeping you from falling off the edge.  

Consider the stall horn a warning.  It should be buzzing when you are pushing the envelope.  With experience you'll be able to walk a fine line on the edge of stall without losing it.  If your up against an experienced player, some part of what you are experiencing is that they are able to push their plane much closer to the edge than you are.

Turn fighting is so much more than just the turning ablities of the aircraft involved.  Each plane has a speed range where its turn rate is at its best.  Just because your spit should out turn a particular plane model, it doesnt mean that it will at all speeds.

Here are 3 brief articles on the basics for some more help.
basic ACM
 attack/pursuit modes
yo-yos

[RTR]

Elyeh,

+16 and  +4 boost (as an example) are measurements of engine manifold pressure.(basically the power your engine is producing)

There is a gauge on your dashboard that shows this. As an aside, in other types of aircraft you will see the gauge displayed  in inches of mercury. (IE  you may see 40 inches of manifold pressure).

What this all means in relation to the E6B is how much fuel you are burning per minute at that given manifold pressure.

So, if your E6B says  31 inches of manifold pressure at an rpm of say 2100 for max cruise, what it is telling you, is that at these engine settings, your allowable flight time will increase. Ie you are burning less fuel and can fly for a longer period of time.

A good way to get home when low on fuel, or transiting across the map etc. You would not want to use these settings in a fight however, as you want max power available to you.

The manifold pressure is changed directly from your throttle, and you can see the gauge indicate as you move the throttle.

The RPM of the Prop and/or engine can be adjusted using the plus (+) and minus (-) keys on your keyboard. (you can of course map these to any other key, or your stick for that matter)

WEP,

This is an abbreviation for "War Emergency Power".
Basically you are drawing more power from your engine by increasing manifold pressure. This comes at a cost however in the form of heat. Your engine will heat up to the point that you will lose this "wep".

Good to use when you are in a fight, not so good to waste it needlessy. Once your engine cools down wep will be restored.

Hope this helps, and welcome aboard!

RTR

[Flit]

BTW, P for WEP on or off

[Grizzly]

Some great stuff on ACM here, use it like a bible Elyeh. The fact that you are asking shows how much you want to know. That is all that is needed to succeed... that and practice.

Your immediate problem is you're being "ham fisted". To make a plane perform at its best you do not force a plane to fly, but help it, or even nurse it into doing what you want it to do. Instead of trying to make the plane fly, concentrate on becoming part of the plane. You will develop a feeling for the plane and instictively know the limits of what you are asking it to do. Flying is using physics... if you do something to lose the physics of flight, you become the pilot of a rock. Feel the physics and use them, not abuse them.

A stall horn simply means you are losing the lift needed to stay in the air. The lift comes from wind flowing over and under your wings. If your plane is flying sideways, there wil be no lift. (This isn't silly... planes fly sideways to some extent when you change the direction the nose is pointed from the direction the plane is moving. That is why the plane wants to stall and spin when you try to "make it turn"... you are trying to force the plane to fly sideways. Instead of trying to make it turn, use gentle movements and pressure upon the stick to guide it into a maneuver. When you can make a plane move right on the verge of a stall, you are riding the edge of its envelope. You'll get the feel... try treating it like a woman  =o)

Ok, now for some specifics. a flat turn is arguably one of the most worthless maneuvers outside of general aviation. There is a golden rule that will make or break you, bank your E. Banking E means managing your energy state by saving it in the bank (potential energy) and withdrawing it from the bank when needed (kenetic energy). If you need to change direction 180 degrees, you must delete all your energy traveling in direction A and create new energy traveling in direction B. If you change direction by turning in the upwards vertical, your E is converted to altitude and though your plane will lose most of it's speed, you are higher and can dive to gain speed again. If you had instead turned left in the horizontal, you not only would have lost your E, the effort used in losing this E *is* the effort of turning... in other words, your E is acting against your turn. The waste between the two maneuvers is incredible.

You mentioned difficulty in having enough E to do an Immelman. This can probably be helped by visualizing the half loop your plane makes. The faster your plane, the longer the radius of your turn. The beginning of the Immelman will have a longer radius and this radius should decrease as the plane slows. So the loop is not a circlular shape, but a spiral with a decreasing radius. Pulling back on the stick too far is trying to make the plane turn upwards faster than it can for it's speed, which is like applying air brakes and wasting E. Instead, when you apply back pressure on the stick, think of doing it like a spiral, by increasing the pressure as your plane gains altitude and loses speed. In AirWarrior we were able to dump our flaps at the top of the immelman to nudge the nose over the top. Because of the flap modeling, this won't work in an AcesHigh Spit, but perhaps a plane like a P38... how about it X-sperts?

A Spit 5 (SeaFire is one) can turn like a leaf with very little air speed if you keep the nose low. Try to visualize doing a downward spiral rolling into the turn. It's sort of like doing a barrel roll pointed down... except not so much downward. For flat turns the Spit is among the best. But the Spit has another unique quality, it seems to refuse to slow down (it retains E). These two qualities work in opposition to each other. This means to get the most performance from a Spit you must do a proper job of E management. If you must squander your E in a flat turn, advanced use of the throttle is as important as use of the stick. And when I say advanced, you must know you are going to make a turn and throttle down in advance so the plane has a chance to slow. Otherwise you won't be able to make a short radius turn. If you're interested in best turning speeds, I suggest it is far closer to 150 mph than 200 at lower altitudes.

Regarding use of the rudder. The rudder is a weird control that has many disverse uses. Picture a 100% horizontal turn where your plane's horizontal axis (wing tip to wing tip) is nearly vertical, nearly all your turning will be with the use of your elevators (that and the applied lift of your wings). In a case like this, you might use your rudder to help keep your nose from dropping, which would be an application of reverse rudder. Now perhaps you could turn more sharply with a 60 degree bank and some use of rudder, but I've not found this to be true in practice... but then, I get kilt a lot. The rudder is also good to nudge the plane into a turn or roll faster. It's also good to help aim and add side slip to screw up the other guy's aim. Use it also to side slip to lose altitude quickly without gaining speed or to slow your plane for landing (or to help slow for a sudden turn in a Spit?) I suspect that the "Combat Maneuvering" mode in AcesHigh pretty much provide auto-coordination (automatic application of rudder in control use such as found in some models of Piper and the Beechcraft Bonanza). So turn off Combat Mode and compare the use of rudders. Ask the experts and experiment.

Feel your plane... become part of the plane... treat it like a woman (unless you are a woman, then treat it like you enjoy being treated).

[DamnedRen]

Originally posted by Elyeh
Anyone wanna give me some advice about turning?

Seems that I get out turned all the time. If I get some one on my tail I just cant seem to shake them or get back around b4 I die.
I'm flying a Seafire IIc. Do you turn with just the stick, or do u use the rudders incongunction with the stick? I've been trimming rudder, elev but I just cant seem to get it.

Just seems like everyone is moving way faster than I am.
I watch people do all kinds of turns and things but when I try to try out all I get is warning buzzers and blackouts LOL

Also if you look at the e6b about a plane I see +16 boost , +4 boost etc....what does this mean?

and whats WEP stand for?  I've hear alot about it but not sure what it means.

Any advice is greatly appreciated and I'm in the TA quite often trying to learn to get better, but I'm scratchin my head here.

I really havn't seen you in the TA. My suggestion is get with me or another trainer and lets get you all set up. Right now you are experiencing many things which are directly attributable to the way you are setup. An hour with a trainer will get you adjusted to the dofighting environment. Let me also say, there is no way to short cut for actual stick time. However, if you learn the right way, the first time, life will get much easier as you progress within this game.

I have seen an "SPig" in the TA. Is that you? Otherwise, what call sign are you using in the game? Thanks.
"StickPig"

[Elyeh]

DamnedRen,

I had my call sign changed  thats why..... I just got it fixed the other day. My password was showing up, not my callsign.
Also I'm usally in the TA late after I get home.... 10 pm or later

Thanks to you and everyone for the advice and help.... I appreciate it.

KSINC
Had to work tonight...... Drop me a line at elyeh1@gmail.com
and we will do it. I was in there the other night with Jpug98
and we did that very same thing.

DamnedRen.... I will look for you next time I'm in the TA Wends night (I hope)

Again thanks to all the replies..... I'll try to take this info and incorparate it into my flying.

[TexMurphy]

@Worthlessness of the flat turn.

I really have to agree here. Basicly there are extreamly few situations where a pure flat turn is gonna be usefull.

One situation where it IS usefull is when countering BnZers.

If you have a high con that is about to bounce you, allign your self so you have him on your six, at aprox 1k flat turn to either left or right. He will never ever be able to get a shot in.

But make sure to not turn too far. As soon as you see him buzz by straighten out and extend from him.

This is the "safe" and "conservative" way to deal with BnZers.

You can reverse onto their six but its much harder and something you dont need to learn right away, first you need to learn to just survive em.

Another situation when a flat turn is a not bad manouver.

If your enemy does a spit S as an opening move. Its extreamly rare to see enemies do this but if they do then the flat turn actually gives you high position on the enemy.

Basicly other then that always look for ways to get vertical movement into your turning. Vertical offset allows you to find angles on a flat turning enemy. There is alot of flat turning enemies.

Dont get sucked into flatturning with an enemy without using the vertical in a furball. Even if you kill the enemy you will be so damn low on E that you will go down seconds after your enemy, someone else with high E will be on you right away.

Tex

[Roscoroo]

as mentioned above is the exchange of "E" (energy)  , in a spitfire thats what we have worked so hard to master .  

a few tricks that i have used ..

 practice without using wep

continued loops thru hangers , practice getting the flaps out right at the top .

fly horizontal circles to learn how tight and how long you can go befor you lose lift and turning radious.
 
dont go for every shot exspecially if its gonna lower your speed too much (unless ur name is Lev and you never miss) plan plan your next manouver ...  this is an automatic reaction that you learn as you get to know your oponents state of E , and how the different planes perform.

most important is think nose down or level flight ... maintain the basic speed the spit needs to perform . (theres a happy medium here that you need to learn ) high speed isnt always a spits friend ..

here this may help ...
watch in ah film viewer . icons on ... i suggest turning "use recorded views " off ..  my SA head movements will put ya in a spin.  outside view F-4 and trail option on will show my flight path .


Roo vs Bishland

your not gonna see a zillion kills ... but what you will see is some of the best Spit "E" managment and alot of the spits best manuvers..  you'll see just about everything thats been said here .

[DamnedRen]

Originally posted by Elyeh
DamnedRen,

I had my call sign changed  thats why..... I just got it fixed the other day. My password was showing up, not my callsign.
Also I'm usally in the TA late after I get home.... 10 pm or later

Thanks to you and everyone for the advice and help.... I appreciate it.

KSINC
Had to work tonight...... Drop me a line at elyeh1@gmail.com
and we will do it. I was in there the other night with Jpug98
and we did that very same thing.

DamnedRen.... I will look for you next time I'm in the TA Wends night (I hope)

I can be in there on SAT night. Name a time. I live in Central Time Zone so work off that if you can. Rgds/Ren

Again thanks to all the replies..... I'll try to take this info and incorparate it into my flying.

[TexMurphy]

Roscoroo made a really important comment about shooting.

Shoot less, hit more and live longer. Might sound like a dumb cliché but its what I try to do.

Knowing when to shoot and when to not shoot is extreamly important. Each time you take a shot you loose position. A bad shot causes you to loose alot of position (possibly even stall) and is most likely a miss. Not only do you loose position but you loose E as well.

I would recommend watching BatfinkV´s and Leviathins films of when they are flying SpitVs. They show you top of the line gunnery. Note how they manouver into position for the shot and never have to force a shot.

Key is if you have to force it dont take it. Forcing it I mean going over the edge of the envelope. Having to pull a harder nose up is ok as long as you are within the envelope.

Lead turn and Lag turn.

Getting a lead turn is always the fastest way to gun solution. But if you dont get the angle to take a lead turn, dont force it. Instead take a lag turn and as the enemy eases of his turn (which he will as he thinks he has you beat) pull in for the 200d shot.

The lag turn is very usefull in the spit. As discussed earlier the Spit has a great sustained turn rate but not as good instant turn rate. So if you get on the six of a say 190 and he pulls a tight turn, lag turn behind him, let him waste his E and then pull in for the shot as he breaks out of his turn.

Taking the lag turn instead of trying to force your self into a lead turn is a good way to conserve your E.

Personally I try to get some vertical into my lag turn so that I get a high position on the enemy when he straightens out. Its a good way to get the enemy to straighten out faster as it does look like you are "zooming" out.

Tex

[Xjazz]

My 2c

Ham-fist flying.
Sometimes I need to squeeze everything out of the plane and fly very Ham-fisted manner. I find it only way to last a little bit longer in my Hurricane Mk lvs A6M2. Precision ham fist flying?  

Be tricky & creative.
Out smart the enemy and never let him to predict your moves, excetpt the fake ones. Never give up.

Low alt merge move vs higher enemy.


Timing is critical. Lure enemy to the steep dive enough. You must have enough speed for fake "Oh yeah?! Lets HO then!" pullup.

Go HO avoid barrel roll (half) and check if enemy follow your roll. If follow, then...

[Schutt]

When you pull into the blackout you loose a lot of energy. When your fast better pull up in a wide swing, let the plane slow down a bit then turn around.

Do your turns as wide as possible as tight as necessary. Sometimes using a wide turn to turn around gives you some vertical seperation which you can use in the following.

Use the roll rate. Rolling your plane cost you verry little energy. Sometimes just rolling in the right dir and pulling a little makes a small turn in the right direction instead of lots of turning and loosing energy. For example while flying straight up you can roll your plane to have the up view face your enemy and pull again to fly in the direction of the enemy, then roll around to get right side up. Instead of doing an immelman and then pulling a level turn to get into his direction you gained a lot.

Once the enemy is on your dead 6 your in trouble, it is real hard to shake him off then because he can take bigger, later or smaller, tighter turns to stay there. Best is to maneuver before he gets on your six. Also consider flying with friends nearby. Say you have an enemy on your six and a friend coming from left-ahead (10 o clock). Do a gentle right turn, timed so your friend comes along flying 200 feet behind the enemy. Then either the con stops persuing you when hes smart or he gets shot down.

Fly like being drunk. Keep changeing your flight path and maneuver, when you pull a lvl turn for 300 degrees its easy for someone else where to shoot you. He does not have to turn with you, he just flys straight and waits for you to turn into his shot. So instead of going for that lvl turn go up and down in it and widen or tighten it all the time. I do not mean yanking on the controls like mad, just smooth unpredictable changes.