Pacific War?

[marcof]

What suprises me is that our "Yankie" Friends cant even play Pearl Harbour or any of the early to mid pacific stuff, if they could represent that they would bring in many more players.Oh i forgot to say "IMHO" in case i upset all you touchy people who CANT take any kind of constructive comments.

Marcof 249RAFC~H~Q.

[juzz]

Good idea, but: even Midway would require 2 variants(A6M2, TBF) and 4 new planes(D3A, B5N, F4F, SBD) - all of which would of course be fairly useless in the MA.  

More efficient would be to model more late war PTO(read: Japanese) planes, since AH already has alot of late war US planes.  

[Jimdandy]

     

Originally posted by marcof:
...Oh i forgot to say "IMHO" in case i upset all you touchy people who CANT take any kind of constructive comments...

Marcof 249RAFC~H~Q.

Yes I think there are a lot of people that would like to see more early war AC including myself. Like a lot of people have said this is still a relatively new game. Air Warrior has a ton of early war planes by comparison but it's been around about 15 years too.

LOL! Marcof the IMHO should be stricken from everyone's vocabulary. It's the most pathetic thing I think people put on here. IMO is fine. You have the right to have an opinion and it states that it is just your opinion but who the hell needs to be humble on here. It's a damn game and you pay for it so state you damn opinion! This pathetic IMHO crap has started because there are to many jerks on here that can't stand to hear someone contradict them. Hell this has got to be the best place of all to be wrong on it doesn't hurt anyone. You best have a humble opinion if someone's life is at stake and you are out of your field of expertise but on here no one is going to die if you state the wrong horsepower of some AC or something. How about the people that go into a panic when you state something bad about their favorite AC and start flaming you because you don't like the same damn plane or something of equal magnitude on some damn game! The big debates rage with people hammering each other, calling each other all kinds of lovely bastards all over obsolete AC on a damn game! You got to love that kind of stuff. Now I can understand the gripes that have to do with play quality and fair access to a game your paying for. At least it's meaningful. It your free time and you are paying for it. Damn people lighten up and allow people to state things on here and be wrong with out going into a feeding frenzy when you see you can hammer them. No more IMHO ever!      

[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 02-23-2001).]

[Vermillion]

We would only need about 2 planes (3 would be nicer) to hold a scenario based upon the largest carrier battle the world has ever seen.  

And let me clue you, it wasn't Coral Sea or Midway!

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[Toad]

A-Go!

Would indeed be fun.

[Torgo]

A-Go would be horrible unless reality was warped so much it wasn't A-Go anymore.

Balancing scenarios that were imbalanced numerically historically is one thing..that's fine...routinely done for big LW vs. Allies scenarios Real A-Go, the Japanese were badly outnumbered.

However, I think people may be under the impression that the Niki, since it was Navy, was CV-capable..it wasn't. Also, there weren't ANY Nikis at all in June of 1944.

All the Japanese would have fighterwise were the Zeros we've got in AH now.

So they have Judy's and Jill's. Doesn't make much difference. Still a lot of Kates and Vals in their force, too, though.

The "Marianas Turkey Shoot" would just be all of them getting mercilessly hacked from the sky by Hellcats..even if you DID balance the sides numerically.  Heck, back in WB scenarios, even the Wildcats routinely would crush the Japanese.

I noticed in WB that even in more balanced scenarios where the US had Wildcats and P-40s, it was still awfully hard to fill Japanese slots...and in the later frames the Japanese would be desperately short with no-shows.

There simply isn't a big enough non-Japanese constituency of people who love IJN and IJA aircraft they way there is with the Luftwaffe.

The "Marianas Turkey Shoot" would be even worse.

Unless you want to pretend that Nikis were carrier aircraft, and they weren't, or that they even existed at the time, which they didn't.

And I'd rather not see modeling effort wasted on Jills and Judys. Neither will ever be worth a damn in the main arena, and the interesting big scenarios for the Pacific will ALWAYS be the early-war ones. Do the Val and Kate.



[This message has been edited by Torgo (edited 02-23-2001).]

[Vermillion]

Actually Torgo, it was mostly Jills, Judy's, and Zero's in a Jabo role.  There were very few Vals and Kates.

The Japanese also had a sizeable contingent of land based aircraft including G4M Betties (yes effectively useless I know) and suprisingly quite a few P1Y1 "Frances" an exceptionally capable Japanese medium bomber.

Fighterwise, yes most of the Japanese fighters were A6M5 Zero's. But don't be deceived in thinking that the Allies were only flying F6F Hellcats, ALOT of their fighters were only FM2 Wildcats off of escort carriers, which are much less capable.

Also the Japanese had over a 1.5:1 force ratio.

The biggest reason that the Battle of the Phillipine Sea turned into the "Marianas Turkey Shoot", was that the Japanese forces were poorly led, and they pissed away their forces in small dribs and drabs, and didn't effectively use their overall force advantage. Plus their overall crew quality was very low compared to the American.

Two situations that in a Scenario would not be as large a factor.

I'm not saying that the Japanese would necessarily win, but I don't think you would see a wholesale recreation of the Turkey Shoot.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[Eagler]

To be true to life, AH should model in some sort of Kamikaze factor. Maybe no "perk" points and lower score , since you do die, but the ability to do damage should be there as it was a threat in the Pacific.
We should get our own AH issued Saki bottles too  

Eagler

[Torgo]

Verm,

Edited post to discuss Judys and Jills..did a quick check, and found they'd gotten rid of more Vals and Kates than I thought (though they stll had a lot of those at the battle.) and most of the IJN CV force in fact had Judys and Jills. Not that they'd make much difference.

Nope, the Japanese were outnumbered in the air, actually. Just from the fleet CVs alone (leaving out the CVEs entirely.) Over 2-1 comparing carrier force to carrier force.

Not enough Japanese LBA left to get it back to 1:1.

The ONLY way to make a scenario out of it is to get rid of the Zeros and replace them with Nikis (which, as I pointed out, turns the scenario into fantasy land) No one is gonna sign up to fly Zeros and get massacred by big groups of Hellcats.

And even IF in the scenario, if you decided to give the Japanese more slots, you'd never fill them.

[marcof]

To be honest dont really know much about the Pacific war except that it was a hard contset for American and Jap forces,however would be nice what with the CV's sinking effects, to play a scenario based around it.

A lot of people keep saying and posting that AH need more players, it seems busy to me around 100+ most nights GMT times.

However if they do need more players then and sorry( jimdaddy but i,ll say it again)
IMHO a well developed historicaly based scenarios will do the job, of bringing in more players.

Now i base my views on two points, First WB's EMC, scenario Lites, etc are very popular, amongst players, and to be honest to some extent are holding WB afloat, from a business point. To be sucsessfull at these events you need to offer a wide range of historical events changing every week/month, so for that you need a large comprehensive A/C base.

My second point is that you only need to look at the intrest in WW2 online to see THAT PEOPLE WANT TO FLY for an axis or allied banner and fight the "dark side" or whatever. Come on!!!!!!! we all dream of flying that P51 or 109 & getting that kill over our true historical oppent not some other 109 or P51.

AH are a small company with a good relationship with its customers however they know, and I know, that to compete they will have to bring in Allied versus Axis one day and fill the gaps in the plane set.

Now a lot of players dont seem to like the fact that this will/might happen, but hey wise up guys it will, and belive me you will all enjoy it.

Thats it said my bit, <S> to all.
Marcof 249 RAF C~H~Q.

P.S. Forgot to say no disrespect to the current scenario team in AH who build scenarios, with very little A/C available.  


[This message has been edited by marcof (edited 02-23-2001).]

[Vermillion]

 

Nope, the Japanese were outnumbered in the air, actually. Just from the fleet CVs alone (leaving out the CVEs entirely.) Over 2-1 comparing carrier force to carrier force.

Not enough Japanese LBA left to get it back to 1:1.

I have been doing ALOT of research on this battle, and I have complete breakdowns of aircraft types and numbers for both sides. If you include the Japanese land based aircraft, they had a 1.5 to 1 force advantage. Especially in bomber strength (tonnage).

And I need to check because I'm not sure about this, but I believe taht the Japanese navy did have some landbased N1K1's at this time. So that wouldnt be quite as "fantasy" as you think. FYI the performance difference between a N1K2 (which we have) and the earlier model N1K1 is pretty much within the range of error of our analog gauges in medium to low screen resolutions.

And I would argue with you about the pilots in AH refusing to sign up to fly the Japanese side. If the scenario is written well, you use a realistic force ratio (so the japanese have the numbers advantage) and the interest in flying in scenarios is present (which it certainly is, within this community at present).  People will fly for the japanese. Sure the US side would fill up first, but eventually if you want to fly you take what is there.

The same thing happened in Afrika Corps, where the Allied filled up first. But with good leadership, and capabale pilots the Axis ended up scoring more points in the scenario than the Allied, even though within the scoring system it was considered a "Tie".

No matter what you do, Pac Scenario's are going to be tough on the Japanese side.  They always are, and always will be.

Marcof, have you or the 249th tried out our "Snapshots"? They are the equivalent to WB's Scenario Lites. More information can be found at http://events.hitechcreations.com

And if the website hasn't been updated recently (the schedule), each weeks events are usually announced on Thursdays in the "Special Events Announcements" forum of this BBS. I think you will enjoy them.



------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[firbal]

Doing a receration of the "Marianas Turkey Shoot" would be a useless scenario to do. In the real battle, it was called a turkey shoot for an reason. By that time, the IJN was pretty much out of season pilot's and aircrews. Almost all of the crews that had the training and experiance wer gone, used up, dead. The crews at that time had almost no experiance and not much training. The tyupe of training and their code of honor and the way the their high command used their crews didn't give them much chane of rplacing their lost pilots very well. So by this time, they had no one left. And the battle was a diverion to draw off the US Navy heavey carriers so their battleship could take out the invation fleet off of Leyte. It worked and the IJN High Command know they were going to lose their carrier force. So you could not properly recreate this battle. You would have to assum the IJN had a good training program to replace it lost pilots and have experiance pilots teach them how to fight in the air.

[AKSeaWulfe]

uhm Firbal, we'd use AH pilots to fill in the IJN and USN ranks. The average AH player is amazing. Case in point, put Mitsu in a zero and someone else in a Hellcat.. betcha Mitsu would rip that Hellcat a new one. It's not a useless scenario if done right.

A useless scenario is a Pearl Harbor scenario. 2 American fighters were airborne after the Japanese had done their damage.

Or is it that if the Japanese have a small margin of chance that they'll lose you don't want to do it?

Guess that throws out just about every pacific scenario then.

You think late war is bad.. try fighting a Ki43 or A6M2 against P40s or F4Fs.
-SW

[Curly]

Firbal, did you read what Verm wrote??

[lazs]

marco... in my squad are some of the most histoically savy guys you will run into including a famous author and Historian on the Pacific war.  None of us participate in scenarios.   We have all read the book.   We know how it came out and are not interested in the pale imitation that a scenario is.   Nor, are we interested in recreating lopsided battles.

Oh, and nothing wrong with an honest opinon IMHO but them stupid smiley faces?????  
lazs