Dresden

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
Except that there were no orders issued in 1940 from the LW to strafe civillians on the road... if they had stafed civillians, that happened because the pilot couldn`t tell apart the deploying french army coloumn from a refugee column (and they often mixed up on the road).

I would be interested in learning your source for this.

- oldman

[Schaden]

Originally posted by Angus
Just stumbled across a big operation description, - happened in about the same time as Dresden.
Some 2000 allied fighters were roaming all over the place, strafing everything that moved basically.
It was about paralyzing German transport.
Will try to see if it fits, - operation name etc.

Operation CLARION, 22nd Feb 1945 - commented on in Armageddon by Max Hastings - awesome book about the last days fo the Reich.

[Angus]

TY Schaden, was looking for it.
Anyway, for Kurfurst, - the debate went this way:
"
quote:
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Originally posted by Kurfürst
Except that there were no orders issued in 1940 from the LW to strafe civillians on the road... if they had stafed civillians, that happened because the pilot couldn`t tell apart the deploying french army coloumn from a refugee column (and they often mixed up on the road).
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I would be interested in learning your source for this.

- oldman
"

Well, if you say there were no orders, it doesn't matter anyway, - you'd then be saying either that the LW pilots were particularly cruel, or that this never happened.
Either way, many a cruel thing happened without the orders for it being discovered just for this forum right now.

[BUG_EAF322]

The luftwaffe didn´t need the orders,


Im glad the majority doesn´t have the kurfurst view on the war.



We would be real eurotards

[GScholz]

Actually Bug, during the invasion in the west the Germans were quite strict about unnecessary killings of civilians and other crimes. Even rape was a death penalty offence in the Wehrmacht.

Remember they were trying to assimilate these populations, not destroy them … unlike Russia.

[Angus]

Never heard that Scholzie.
Anyway, they quickly earned fame for executions, imprisonments and....camps.
Dresden is bombed some fortnight after the Russians marched into Birkenau (Auschwitz). So, the air was, to say the least, very hot.
Also bear in mind that it was well known what the LW had been up to in Poland for instance. Just a smaller scale.
The Devil really must have had a good time during WW2, - death and pain on every front and every side in every year of it.

[Kurfürst]

Angus seems to be the no1. Dresden-apologist on this board.
He does everything to relativize the scale of the crime.

[Angus]

Tokyo was bigger. But it didn't work.
London was a bigger target, but the LW capacity was not enough.
Hamburg was almost about as bad.
Hiroshima, Nagasaki were big. It worked.
Dresden was a deep penetration raid with a rather blurry point. It caused nothing but pain. The idea may have been that the Germans would surrender, but with the Nazi's iron grip, that was not to happen. Stupid.
So, be it scale or comparison, the thing happened, and as I have said before on this thread, I think it was all very sad.
And at least I am not a Nazi apologist.

[Kurfürst]

Good thing you are not a nazi apologist, too, Angus. It`s enough already if you try to relativize Allied war crimes by making up crimes on the other side, even if there`re are many actual crimes to pick from.
Looks like you only want to generate hatred against certain nations. 'They deserved it' and cr@p like that.  

[GScholz]

Originally posted by Angus
Never heard that Scholzie.

Actually during the invasion of France there was even a rumour circulating in the Wehrmacht that two soldiers were shot just for making gestures to a French farm girl. Whether it was true or not nobody knows.

[Angus]

A lot happens in war, that's what I'm saying, and the closure of WW2 was particularly nasty.
Now this from Barbi:
"It`s enough already if you try to relativize Allied war crimes by making up crimes on the other side, even if there`re are many actual crimes to pick from.  
Looks like you only want to generate hatred against certain nations. 'They deserved it' and cr@p like that. "

Now, MAKING UP WHAT? Please make yourself more clear. Auschwitz perhaps?
GENERATING HATRED AGAINST CERTAIN NATIONS, I challenge you to be more specific, and bear in mind that half my family is German and lived in Dresden for a while.
For getting this straight, I do not put a "=" between Germans and the Nazi's. And yes, Nazi's of the WW2 IMHO deserved a lot of spanking.
What must be understood is that there was massive hatred in the air at the time, the Nazi's dirty deals had been surfacing, everybody was sick of the war, there was very little patience, very little mercy, and although somewhat debated, almost no remedy not considered to end the madness in a Bang.
Dresden failed, so hindsight tells us it was nothing but a massacre. Same would have been the case with Hiroshima had the Japanese not surrendered.
Easy to be wise afterwards and say, from the armchair "now this was a warcrime, this not, but also this and this etc etc"
So, conclusion, IMHO Dresden was a disaster, but due to the cirkumstances I can understand the motivation.
OKAY ?

Anyway, for Scholzie:
"Actually during the invasion of France there was even a rumour circulating in the Wehrmacht that two soldiers were shot just for making gestures to a French farm girl. Whether it was true or not nobody knows."
I have no doubt that this could be correct.
Ugly things also occured, for you had the SS swarming around. Did you know that there were mass executions of British POW's in the time of the Dunkirk affair.
And even the great German general Student got shot in the head by SS men at the time.
WW2 was a bloody mess.