Author Topic: Thoughts regarding Drake's Equation  (Read 1337 times)

Offline Chairboy

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Thoughts regarding Drake's Equation
« on: April 15, 2005, 01:28:34 PM »
Drake's Equation is a theory formed in the 1960s to try and provide a framework for guessing at how often intelligent life evolves elsewhere.  (Creationist types, this conversation isn't for you, so please file out of the topic in an orderly fashion.)  The idea behind it is to fill a template with some guesses about how often certain things occur and try to figure out, based on that, how likely it is we'll encounter other life.

It's not a law, and it's completely garbage in, garbage out, but it's a useful tool for conceptualizing how something as improbably as life might appear in a universe as incredibly ginormous as ours.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake%27s_equation

That established, the continued lack of SETI discoveries have had people scratching their heads.  "Why is it," they ask, " that even with incredibly conservative numbers, we still get N >> 1 answers (eg, strong suggestion that the universe should be teeming with life) but still nothing from the radio telescopes?"

I have a thought about a possible modification to the equation that might result in the number of likely civilizations staying the same, but dramatically decrease the time they would be detactable.

Back in the 1960s, the planet was putting out exponentially more and more RF as time went by.  Transmitters for radio stations got bigger, satellites started appearing and signals were being beamed out into space, powerful new radar that literally heated up the air started being used, it was a cornucopia of high powered radio being broadcast, and it seemed obvious that this would continue.  

Implicit in the original equation seems to be the assumption that, once they've reached the detectable level (via radio), the civilization would definately STAY there until the end of life.

Fast forward to today, and a different pattern seems to be emerging with relation to our planet.  RF output, in spite of predictions 30 years ago, has started to decrease planet wide.  The number of transmitters has increased, but the cellularization of communications and widespread infrastructure has reduced the wattage needed, even as high frequencies (which are less likely to survive over long distances) have gotten higher.

Satellite data links, once the norm, are being phased out in favor of high speed, low latency fiberoptic links that stretch to every continent.

The actual amount of detectable radiowaves outside the solar system is probably decreasing.

It's not unreasonable to imagine that eventually, RF will be replaced with some other communications method that offers improvements in range, speed, or cost.

With this in mind, the visualization of the detactable civilizations in the galaxy might be more accurately seen, not as beacons, but instead ephemeral 50-100 year bubbles that expand in all directions for a fraction of the total lifetime of the civilization.

So maybe the numbers people have come up with are right, but the odds of us catching them in their radio phase are worse then we thought.

I wanted to run this by y'all here before posting elsewhere, any thoughts?
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Offline Samiam

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Thoughts regarding Drake's Equation
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2005, 02:03:26 PM »
Your hypothesis is already accounted for in the variable L.

Simply consider L to be the span during which a civilization can be communicated with by a recognizable means.

According the to article, Drake used 10 years - much lower than your supposed 50-100 years.

My own opinion:

The dimensions of the universe and astronomic time frames are so hard for us to grasp that we don't fully appreciate them when we think of things like intelligent life elsewhere.

If atheist scientists are correct and life on earth is a natural outcome of circumstances that exist on earth, and that, astronomically speaking, we're likely only to be around for a mere blip in time relative to the expanse of the universe, then the odds that, in this brief nano-second of galactic time, we encounter another civilization that is roughly on the same evolutionary clock as us (you know, within a million years or two) are so incredibly small that it's a waste of time to even think about it.

On the other hand, if we *were* to encounter signs of life from another planet, even if they were radio signals millions of years old, one might reasonably conclude that, due to the incredibly miniscule odds of two intelligent civilizations developing in such a fleeting moment - astromonically speaking - that it couldn't be random and that there must be a higher order at work.

Offline Octavius

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Thoughts regarding Drake's Equation
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2005, 02:19:34 PM »
"What is here is everywhere, what is not here is nowhere."

Sifting through equations, facts, occurances, communications, or the lack of the aforementioned, will lead to a relatively 'disappointing' probability as you described, Chair.  To actually slap a number on a span of time from our frame of reference is setting ourselves up for a discouraging number.  

Time shouldn't have any meaning.  So we've been searching for roughly half a century.  That may equate to the time it takes to take a dump in some other civilization.  Or civilizations may have come and gone in the time it takes us to pinch a loaf.  In an infinite universe, it is 100% possible and 100% probable.

I think that it just reminds us that we are merely a fart in the grand scheme of things.  Different forms of communication certainly exist.  What of the more exotic forms that we are currently unaware of (faster-than-light?)?  We're looking for life "like us"; using EM waves... one of many discovered and also yet to be discovered.  The possibility that life, intelligent life at that, can exist in other aspects currently incomprehensible to us at the moment (Ender's Game and the Buggers for example :)) exists one hundred percent.  

Sorry, I'm jumping outside of the Drake discussion and into relativisms and probabilities.  

Back to my original quote... In an infinite universe life exists anywhere and everywhere.
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Offline Thrawn

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Thoughts regarding Drake's Equation
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2005, 02:24:35 PM »
Makes sense to me.  Another question is at the rate technology is increasing is even economically necessary to expand beyond the planet?

Offline Octavius

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« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2005, 02:47:30 PM »
economically necessary?  Meh.  Just plain necessary?  YES. :)
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Offline Chairboy

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Thoughts regarding Drake's Equation
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2005, 02:51:49 PM »
From a survival standpoint, we HAVE to expand.  You don't keep all your eggs in one basket because if you drop that basket...

Good point about L, I hadn't thought of it that way, Samiam.  Thanks!
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Offline Skuzzy

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Thoughts regarding Drake's Equation
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2005, 03:11:53 PM »
In our ignorance, we look for ignorance.
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Offline Rino

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Thoughts regarding Drake's Equation
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2005, 03:23:14 PM »
I'm just wondering why we assume intelligent life exists?:lol
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Offline Skuzzy

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Thoughts regarding Drake's Equation
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2005, 03:34:29 PM »
It would be truly arrogant to think we are the only some-what intelligent species in the Universe.
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Offline bustr

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Thoughts regarding Drake's Equation
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2005, 03:39:56 PM »
The Galactic "Skuzzy" may have placed a ban on our planet untill such time that we can find "Skuzzy", at which point we will have answered this question....................:)
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Offline Nuke33

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Thoughts regarding Drake's Equation
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2005, 03:40:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Skuzzy
It would be truly arrogant to think we are the only some-what intelligent species in the Universe.


Agreed.. Good work as always Skuzzinator :aok

Offline Silat

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Thoughts regarding Drake's Equation
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2005, 03:50:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rino
I'm just wondering why we assume intelligent life exists?:lol



Have they found intelligent life in NJ?:)

                       :lol
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Offline Thrawn

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Thoughts regarding Drake's Equation
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2005, 03:59:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
From a survival standpoint, we HAVE to expand.  You don't keep all your eggs in one basket because if you drop that basket...



How do you think this basket will drop?


Quote
Originally posted by Skuzzy
It would be truly arrogant to think we are the only some-what intelligent species in the Universe.


Ascribing arrogance to a position doesn't detract from it's validity.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2005, 06:22:33 PM by Thrawn »

Offline Skuzzy

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Thoughts regarding Drake's Equation
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2005, 04:05:32 PM »
Arrogance, in of itself, has no basis in fact.  The point of 'validity' is moot.
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Offline Thrawn

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Thoughts regarding Drake's Equation
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2005, 04:09:14 PM »
Because there is no data to support the claim and by definition it's impossible to prove a negative?