Author Topic: Nuther Dora post - 43?  (Read 1723 times)

Offline hogenbor

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Nuther Dora post - 43?
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2005, 06:07:26 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Simaril
But don't forget that the very nature of dictatorship guarantees that crappy decisions are going to be made more often. Arrogance, concentration of power, and (sometimes violent) disincentive to offer unpopular opinions means that stupidity os more likely to go unchecked....

As in many things, you get what you pay for. The same insanity that led to starting the war guaranteed it's loss....


I find this an uplifting and optimistic comment (I say this without a trace of irony)

As far as the heater of old VW's is concerned, they work... but not that good. The heat exhangers are quite primitive and the car will produce heat proportionally to its (air cooled) engine speed. So under hard acceleration you'll get heat, idling in a snowstorm... no. Furthermore are the heater channels susceptible to rust.

Never owned a real beetle but I did own a disastrous T3 Bus from 1981, one of the very last with an air cooled engine. Same problems there.

Offline MiloMorai

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Nuther Dora post - 43?
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2005, 06:14:01 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by bunch
He219 was a dominant nightfighter & the Do335 was faster than the FW190...i didnt mention the 410 but that didnt stop you from basing more than half of your response on the Hornisse.  A dayfighter He219 would had outperformed that dog


The He 219 was a failure as a night fighter and would have been just as useless as any other 2 engine day fighter. It could barely catch the Mosquito bombers.

The Do 335 had issues that would have had to be worked out before it became a useful day fighter. The main issue was the overheating of the rear engine. Can't get the fast speed with only 1 1/2 engines.

Offline Naudet

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Nuther Dora post - 43?
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2005, 06:24:31 AM »
The HE219 was both a failure and a success.
Sound funny but is somewhat true.
The HE219 was constantly plugged by the missing high power engines that were originally though to be used in it.
The actual production planes severely suffered from being underpowered. If the right engines would have been available the plane would have been much better.

The cockpit was quite good for a night fighter and if i remember correctly, beside the fact that it was underpowered (which is a very bad thing on a 2-engined-plane) it was an easy plane to fly on instruments.

Additionaly the performance of any german night fighter was decreased due to the german radar technologie requiring large arrays of external antennas.

And again germany took a triple road, instead of either using the HE219, TA154 or JU88G the LW tried to developed them all.
Just a waste of resources. The JU88G with JUMO213E engines was fully capable as a night fighter as was an already proofen design. Basicly the JU88 was the german Mosquito. Not a WOODEN wonder, but a very well performing fast bomber/fighter.


EDIT: I think the DO335 had the potential to become the fastest piston engined fighter of WW2. But it was a large heavy plane, well suited as bomber interceptor but less capable as a fighter.
But anyway the jet age had startet and made the idea of the DO335 obsolete.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2005, 06:26:57 AM by Naudet »

Offline agent 009

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Nuther Dora post - 43?
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2005, 11:13:11 AM »
The VW unlike the Jeep did have an enclosed cockpit & probably was a bit more aerodynamic.

Offline rshubert

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Nuther Dora post - 43?
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2005, 03:43:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by agent 009
Yes, but if Superman had been born in Germany, it would have changed everything.

Ubermann!


Check your Superman history.  He was originally a BAD GUY based on the German ideal of a "superman".

Believe it or not.

Offline bunch

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Nuther Dora post - 43?
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2005, 03:47:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MiloMorai
The He 219 was a failure as a night fighter and would have been just as useless as any other 2 engine day fighter. It could barely catch the Mosquito bombers.

The Do 335 had issues that would have had to be worked out before it became a useful day fighter. The main issue was the overheating of the rear engine. Can't get the fast speed with only 1 1/2 engines.


Well, to easily catch the DH98 bombs speeds of near 500mph would be required, the He219 could do it & no other LW pistion nightfighter could.  Whats more, it could outrun any allied nightfighter.  Given significant numbers it would have been tremenously effective, it's failure was caused by other than the A/C.  The He219 would have been a more effective platform for launching rockets into formations than the Me410, which is about all the fighting the 410s really did

Offline MiloMorai

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Nuther Dora post - 43?
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2005, 04:23:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bunch
Well, to easily catch the DH98 bombs speeds of near 500mph would be required, the He219 could do it & no other LW pistion nightfighter could.  Whats more, it could outrun any allied nightfighter.  Given significant numbers it would have been tremenously effective, it's failure was caused by other than the A/C.  The He219 would have been a more effective platform for launching rockets into formations than the Me410, which is about all the fighting the 410s really did


The He 219 could barely manage to hit 380mph, on a good day (this is from some Heinkel graphs). This was slightly slower than the Me 410B. The 416mph number one sees quoted was for a stipped down a/c that had the exhaust shrouds removed, the radar antenna removed and some other weight saving. The special Mossie hunter version never was made.

The Mossie NF 30s, of which 526 were built, could do 424mph at 26,500ft, 400mph at 13,500ft which would leave the Heinkel sucking its exhaust fumes. The Mossie NF 30 appeared in March 1944.

Offline bunch

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Nuther Dora post - 43?
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2005, 05:38:48 PM »
As what you write is contrary to what i have read by Mosquito Mk.XXX crew who were unable to close to firing range on aircraft they ID'd as He219, i guess i have to choose if i believe actual combat crew or some riled up guy on the 'net....i guess i choose you


...another note: He219 could do it at the altitude where it counted, where it's victims flew.  the 410 was, i'm sure, kicking the crap out of all the B-17 formations flying at 5000m.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Nuther Dora post - 43?
« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2005, 06:19:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bunch
He219 was a dominant nightfighter & the Do335 was faster than the FW190...i didnt mention the 410 but that didnt stop you from basing more than half of your response on the Hornisse.  A dayfighter He219 would had outperformed that dog


219 was a dog and barely made it into service.

do335 never made it into service. Even if it had by late 1945 it would have been outclassed by the P51H and P47M both of which were faster, more maunuverable, climbed better etc.  

In contrast the FW190C would have been available in early 1943 and would have bben the worlds undisputed best high alt air dominance fighter for about a year until the allies developed Spit 14, Tempest, and the P51B became available in number.  Even then the early 43 intial Fw190C would be faster than all of them, and thts not even consideing upgrades it might have had to improve performace in its firsty year,

But yea, go ahead and say that 2 twins that saw virtually no use late in the war, when the issue was cleraly decided aginst the LW were more worthy than a fighter of the FW190c caliber which was ready to be avilable in quantity in early 43 - a perriod when the wester airwar was still in play...

As for the 410, it was the real reson db603 was diverted from fw190c. It went into production at the same late 42 early 43 timeframe and the rLM gave  it priority over 190C and so it got the engines and fw190c was done.  Thats why I wrote about it.

Offline MiloMorai

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Nuther Dora post - 43?
« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2005, 08:42:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bunch
...another note: He219 could do it at the altitude where it counted, where it's victims flew.  the 410 was, i'm sure, kicking the crap out of all the B-17 formations flying at 5000m.


Sure what ever you say. :rolleyes:

The 410's loaded weight was almost 2000kg(4500lb) lighter and had a service ceiling almost 1100m(3300ft) higher than the 219.

There was NO Mosquito NF MkXXX.

Offline agent 009

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Nuther Dora post - 43?
« Reply #25 on: April 18, 2005, 10:36:48 PM »
Um Do 335 did get into combat 44, ( not very many ), according to Clostermann. He chased one in his Tempest & couldn't catch it.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Nuther Dora post - 43?
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2005, 01:49:49 AM »
Not really combat if an unarmed prototype on a test flight runs into enemy fighters because their invincible vaterland is getting overrrun. :)

And on that note, I'm off to watch a little German movie caled: Good Bye Lenin.



:lol
« Last Edit: April 19, 2005, 01:52:28 AM by GRUNHERZ »

Offline bunch

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Nuther Dora post - 43?
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2005, 02:12:04 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by MiloMorai
Sure what ever you say. :rolleyes:

The 410's loaded weight was almost 2000kg(4500lb) lighter and had a service ceiling almost 1100m(3300ft) higher than the 219.

There was NO Mosquito NF MkXXX.


Once again i have to make my choice of believing stirred up angry 'net dude or WW2 vet's 1st person account.  For the sake of politeness, i choose you.  Please send Emmanuel Gustin an email to correct his here-to-fore authoratative Military Aircraft Database http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/gustin_military/db/index.html
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/gustin_military/db/br/MOSQUITO.html

Offline MiloMorai

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Nuther Dora post - 43?
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2005, 06:20:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by bunch
Once again i have to make my choice of believing stirred up angry 'net dude or WW2 vet's 1st person account.  For the sake of politeness, i choose you.  Please send Emmanuel Gustin an email to correct his here-to-fore authoratative Military Aircraft Database http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/gustin_military/db/index.html
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/gustin_military/db/br/MOSQUITO.html

stirred up angry 'net dude :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rofl

Here are some Mosquito ONLY sites:

http://www.mossie.org/Mosquito.html
http://www.home.gil.com.au/~bfillery/mossie02.htm
http://www.vectorsite.net/avmoss.html

Now what did Gustin say about the NF 30, not the NF XXX.;)

Speed: 682km/h or 423.786mph (rounded off, 424mph).

So I don't know what you are yapping about as Gunstin agrees with the speed I posted.:eek:

LOL bunch, I told you where that 416mph number came from. :( Who would you believe, some Heinkel performance graphs or some dude's  'net site? For the sake of politeness I will go with the Heinkel graphs.

Offline Angus

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Nuther Dora post - 43?
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2005, 07:46:30 AM »
He219 is the "UHU" right?
Anyway, the little I know is that the Mosquito Nightfighters thougt it was a dangerous opponent. But there were very few.
The dominant German nightfighter was the 110 anyway, and a heavily armed 110 with antennas all over the place was no match for a Mossie...
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)