Nuther Dora post - 43?

[Kurfürst]

Just keep in mind that the He 219 nightfighter is just another hate-pet of the MiloMorai like the Bf 109. All forums are loud from his whining and endless rhetorics what a poor plane the 'Uhu' was. Even if it`s actual combat results proved to be outstanding (iirc, the first combat sortie brought 5 Lanc kills in a single Uhu). As for barely catching the Mossie bomber version, those could do no more than ca 380mph, and there was no such moron pilot who would run at max speed, nor would this pilot reach it`s target before running out of fuel... cruising speeds were far less than that, not to mention that while enourmous amount is whining is put into pointing out the Uhu`s speed was lower when night-equipment was fitted like flame dampers (WOW, huge discovery), the same equipment had to be fitted on the Mosquitos (and Lancasters etc.) as well, hurting performance just as bad.

But besides that, I think it was correct not to put the Uhu into production, regardless the nice qualties it had. There was no need for another, specialized type airframe in production when the multi purpose and proven Bf 110 and Ju 88 could do the job very well against the heavy bombers, and not wasting resources to counter a high profile nuisance the Mosquito was. Moreover, GM-1 boosted Ju 88 G subtypes have the same performance the Uhu had, so why bother with it?


Now back on the orig topic, it`s nice if an airplane completes it`s tests, but it`s different from being ready to go into production. First thing, the engine manufacturers may not keep up with the demands, this is quite usual thing to happen. Just think of the Me 262. Engines were not ready, neither yet mass produced.. And as for the 410s etc getting the 603 engines, keep in mind that in early 1943 there was hardly any opposing fighter design that would prompt for the immidiate production of such uber-performance fighter as the FW 190C.. at best the enemy had equal technology. Fast bombers like the 410 were however very usuful in their everyday tasks, if not so glorious as the shining fighters, but it`s always the bomber that wins the battles!

[Angus]

It's not always the bombers that wins the battles!
That sounds outright AMREEGAN

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
Just keep in mind that the He 219 nightfighter is just another hate-pet of the MiloMorai like the Bf 109. All forums are loud from his whining and endless rhetorics what a poor plane the 'Uhu' was. Even if it`s actual combat results proved to be outstanding (iirc, the first combat sortie brought 5 Lanc kills in a single Uhu). As for barely catching the Mossie bomber version, those could do no more than ca 380mph, and there was no such moron pilot who would run at max speed, nor would this pilot reach it`s target before running out of fuel... cruising speeds were far less than that, not to mention that while enourmous amount is whining is put into pointing out the Uhu`s speed was lower when night-equipment was fitted like flame dampers (WOW, huge discovery), the same equipment had to be fitted on the Mosquitos (and Lancasters etc.) as well, hurting performance just as bad.

You do have you problems Barbarosasa  Isegrim. So . I am not blinded with luve, nor have tunnel vision for anything nazi Germany produced during WW2, as you are. Pointing out the myths with regard to the 219 is whinning? Only Barbarosasa  Isegrim would see it as that.

The NF 30 had flame dampers and was 40mph faster than your uber 219. Mossie bombers would climb to over 20,000ft over the North Sea and do a shallow dive to the target, thus increasing their speed substantionally. Barbarosasa  Isegrim makes a big deal out of flame dampers and speed yet forgets that the 219 would soon run out of fuel very quickly if it ran at full speed for very long trying to catch these Mossies.

Streib only shot down 1 Lancaster on that night, the other 4 a/c were Hailfax. I know you will be a disbeliever, so go here, Reich, West and Südfront, May to Jul 1944. Vol. I, http://jg26.vze.com/

The 219 was so good that up to Nov 3 44, it only claimed 10 Mossies. Hptm Strunning with the most, claiming 3 of them, 1 in June and 2 in July. It only claimed 133 a/c til then. See claims in the trip report No. 779/44 by Heinkel employee Hilber.

One LW unit that was to use the 219 prefered to keep using its Ju 88s.

[bunch]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
stirred up angry 'net dude

Here are some Mosquito ONLY sites:

http://www.mossie.org/Mosquito.html
http://www.home.gil.com.au/~bfillery/mossie02.htm
http://www.vectorsite.net/avmoss.html

Now what did Gustin say about the NF 30, not the NF XXX.

Speed: 682km/h or 423.786mph (rounded off, 424mph).

So I don't know what you are yapping about as Gunstin agrees with the speed I posted.

LOL bunch, I told you where that 416mph number came from. Who would you believe, some Heinkel performance graphs or some dude's  'net site? For the sake of politeness I will go with the Heinkel graphs.

Emmanuel Gustin has a proven track record of decades of accurate, unemotional assembly of infromation.  You have a few years track record of ax grinding on a BBS.  1940s german industrailists dont have a particular reputation for honesty, but rather for having had their facts suit their needs at the moment....100 group pilots called them Mk.XXX, you should go correct them where they are so obviously wrong or not disguise you lack of knowledge with pety semantics....pilots seem rarely to have wanted to switch from an aircraft they are doing well on to another, even when the later did turn out to be a step up

[MiloMorai]

 RAF pilots were notorious for identifying their a/c incorrectly. The Spit IXs are a good example. After the Mk XX, the Mossies got Roman numeral Mk numbers. See Gustin is not perfect.

So, if German industrialist have a reputation for dishonesty, why does the 219 graph show a 35-40mph decrease in speed than what Gunstin states? Another error by Gunstin?

Another error by Gustin is the A-5's ceiling which was just over 1000m lower than what he states. In fact, it is only slightly lower than the prototype A-0 with 1/2 fuel. We all know prototypes had better performance numbers than production a/c.

He 219 production:

totals
A-0 : 137
A-? : 17 (A-0 or A-2)
A-2 : 62+

for a total of 216+ while Guston states  "only 294". Notice no A-5s.

Pilots had a good reason for not wanting to switch. The 219 was not a step up from the 88.

You really should try to expand your reference sources bunch. But then, if your are not interested in seperating myth from the truth....? The only axe grinding pettiness I see is by you.

[Karnak]

Kurfürst,

The Mosquito B.Mk IV had a top speed of 380mph.  The Mosquito B.Mk IX had, if I recall, a 408mph top speed and the Mosquito B.Mk XVI had a 416mph top speed.  All of those were operating at the time the He219 was, though the Mosquito B.Mk IV's were probably war weary by that time.

[Scherf]

Oooooooooooo,

This could get to be real fun!

[Squire]

Night fighting was not about roaring around at your top listed speed like day fighter combat. It was a matter of detection and stealth to close on a target that did not see you coming. Radar, flight endurance, crew ergonomics were much greater factors than how fast they flew.  

He-219s did not go full throttle all over Germany, nor did Mosquitos, Bf 110s, Ju-88s or any of the others...

A Lancaster with a bombload cruised around @250 mph. You didnt need to go 400+ mph to catch it. Likewise for other axis and allied bombers.

A He-219 that was detected by a NF Mossie and attacked would probably not see it coming. Likewise for a NF Mossie being attacked. Most night kills were scored against targets that did not detect the attack untill it was too late. So endlessly arguing over "top speeds" is largely irrelevant, unless you are talking about a very slow fighter that could not properly close the distance on a bomber or an opposing night fighter.

By the time the pilot would say "crap im taking fire, I better out run him with my new boost system", he was already on fire and missing a wing.

What I have read on the He-219 is that its main drawback was the unreliability of its engines, which would not have endeared it to NJG pilots, but many new a/c had powerplant bugs that needed working out, this was commonplace in WW2. As it was the He-219 did not see large scale production, but it was a potentially very good design. It had a good operational record for the sorties it flew.

[Karnak]

Squire,

Not really true.  Top speeds aren't really useful, but they do indicate cruise speeds which in turn give an indication to the interception window a defending night fighter had.  The Mosquito had an unusually high cruise speed.


As to tactics, that is an interesting subject.  There was more skill in the stalking and counter stalking than you seem to indicate.  It wasn't just blind luck.

[Squire]

Ya, I agree, I was just generalising.

Its not like one can say "speed means nothing" because then we would still see Sopwith Camels in the RAF , but I just meant that in regards to night fighters, top speed was not as big of an issue as day fighter combat, where you go "flat out" upon making contact, so a night fighter might do 400mph tops instead of 360mph, but that sort of difference does not always result in a big tactical detriment for the slower fighter. Of course, it doesnt ever hurt to be fast and have a good climberate....I cant think of a night fighter pilot saying "give me a slow plane", that would be silly. Im sure they all appreciated the faster designs as they got them.

[agent 009]

Yah, rate of acceleration is perhaps the more relevant issue. How fast you get from 350 to 400 when attacked. Break of from an attacker.