Nuther Dora post - 43?

[agent 009]

Dora should have & could have gone into production early 43 with DB 603 & gm 1 boost, but instead the ME 410, HE 219 UHU & DO 335 got the 603 motors.  Over 8000 603's were built during war.410 was cancelled sept 44.

A big might have been. 603 motor did have some teething probs I have heard, but nonetheless it would have been a 450 plus aircraft with central cannon available mid 43. A world beater perhaps. Big misssed opportunity. Thoughts?

[GRUNHERZ]

It wouldnt have been the Dora, it would have been Caesar.

Fw190C would have given the LW a 450mph+, 3 cannon, 2 heavy MG armed mass produced high alt fighter in early 43. FW was fully ready to start production of this model in late 1942...  Yes it would have been a world beater, fully competitive with the best late 1944 alled planes but in early 1943, and a better performer than the Dora...  

The bomber campaign would have been much different with a whole lot of those flying about..

Instead they got a 430mph, 2 cannon, 2 heavy MG armed, mid alt FW190D fighter by late 1944..  The 450mph high alt Dora the D12/13 didnt come out until spring 1945 and had only 3 cannon..

Dumb..

[agent 009]

Thanks Grun. Agreed.

Next question. I read the V-18 went well over 480 mph. I know it couldn't be mass produced as they didn't have high grade steel for turbocharger. they tried ceramics, but these melted.

So, question is, did it really go well over 480 mph?

[bunch]

coulda woulda shoulda....the He & the Do were more deserving than the FW anyway

[hogenbor]

Originally posted by bunch
coulda woulda shoulda....the He & the Do were more deserving than the FW anyway

If they were more deserving I don't know, but let's not forget that there were very high performing PROTOTYPE planes on both sides. Getting these planes into squadron service is a different matter. 'The powers that be' made some poor decisions, also on both sides. But even if the Ceasar and the Me-262 would have been brought into mass production the war would have been lost for Germany, it just would have lasted longer.

[agent 009]

Yes, but if Superman had been born in Germany, it would have changed everything.

Ubermann!

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by bunch
coulda woulda shoulda....the He & the Do were more deserving than the FW anyway

How so? The 219 barely made it into combat late in the war. do335 never did. The me410 was a disster in its main role, and was in fact outlived by its predecessor the Bf110...

In contrast FW was ready in LATE 1942 to produce a 450mph high altitude FW190 with very few differences from the FW190A...

This design would have given a lot more worth to the LW than any of those failed twins..

Of course this means Berlin would have been nuked in 46, but in late 42 it was a stupid decision to get the db603 to those awful wasteful twins.

[Naudet]

You should also note that the FW190D with JUMO213A could have been made available at end of '43 instead of August/September '44.

After trials in late '42/early '43 the testing was almost completely stoped until spring '44.

Not to forget that Heinkel had a fully developed Jet Design the HE280 (or was it 288) ready in '42. Though the performance did not match that of the ME262, germany could have had a Jet interceptor ready by end of '43 with 3 centrally mounted cannons and 480mph Topspeed.

But i am as a german, am very glad Berlin did the wrong decisisions and i don't have to live in a nuclear radiant area.

[Simaril]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ


...In contrast FW was ready in LATE 1942 to produce a 450mph high altitude FW190 with very few differences from the FW190A...

This design would have given a lot more worth to the LW than any of those failed twins..

Of course this means Berlin would have been nuked in 46, but in late 42 it was a stupid decision to get the db603 to those awful wasteful twins.

But don't forget that the very nature of dictatorship guarantees that crappy decisions are going to be made more often. Arrogance, concentration of power, and (sometimes violent) disincentive to offer unpopular opinions means that stupidity os more likely to go unchecked....



As in many things, you get what you pay for. The same insanity that led to starting the war guaranteed it's loss....

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
In contrast FW was ready in LATE 1942 to produce a 450mph high altitude FW190 with very few differences from the FW190A...

According to Delivery Plan LC 21 of Dec 1943, production of the Fw190C was not to start til March 1943 and continue to March 1944, with 727 a/c produced. So, saying late 1942 is pushing it a bit.

A graph in the Hermann's Dora book has the 190 mit DB603 doing 730kph @ 7km with C3/2000ps. St-u Not has it doing 700kph @ 7km.

[agent 009]

Yes, some bad decisions were made. But they did put the VW into production & it ended up being a good call. What was it's top speed?

[Simaril]

Originally posted by agent 009
Yes, some bad decisions were made. But they did put the VW into production & it ended up being a good call. What was it's top speed?

With or without a tailwind?

Course, it didnt have a functional heater, which could be a problem at altitude.

[Pongo]

Originally posted by Simaril
But don't forget that the very nature of dictatorship guarantees that crappy decisions are going to be made more often. Arrogance, concentration of power, and (sometimes violent) disincentive to offer unpopular opinions means that stupidity os more likely to go unchecked....



As in many things, you get what you pay for. The same insanity that led to starting the war guaranteed it's loss....

yup
yup
anddddd
yup

[bob149]

the beetle did have a functional heater .....you just couldnt turn it off
Well that was the case on my old 66

[bunch]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
How so? The 219 barely made it into combat late in the war. do335 never did. The me410 was a disster in its main role, and was in fact outlived by its predecessor the Bf110...

In contrast FW was ready in LATE 1942 to produce a 450mph high altitude FW190 with very few differences from the FW190A...

This design would have given a lot more worth to the LW than any of those failed twins..

Of course this means Berlin would have been nuked in 46, but in late 42 it was a stupid decision to get the db603 to those awful wasteful twins.

He219 was a dominant nightfighter & the Do335 was faster than the FW190...i didnt mention the 410 but that didnt stop you from basing more than half of your response on the Hornisse.  A dayfighter He219 would had outperformed that dog