Author Topic: about to buy new system?  (Read 1080 times)

Offline Kev367th

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about to buy new system?
« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2005, 10:20:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by eagl
Star,

I wasn't trying to sound snippy so I'm sorry if it came off that way.

I just looked at the rest of 68's parts list...  A64 3700...  2 sticks of memory...  It's not a budget buildup by any definition of the term, so why get the older socket and single channel memory controller?

Yes, he'll have to eventually upgrade but AMD has said a few times that their dual core cpus *should* plunk into socket 939 boards with just a bios update.  Time will tell, but with the release of the dual core opterons around a month away, right now seems like a silly time to put big money into a socket 754 board.  Just going from an A64 3700 to a 3500 or 3200 would have saved enough cash to get a premium socket 939 board and have enough left over for a whole lot of beer.

But of course it's pretty much all opinion, so my last thought will be that every single major review site will recommend a socket 939 motherboard for gaming, because when you're putting together a gaming rig, $50 for socket 939 is a drop in the bucket compared to the price of the other parts.  Socket 754 is a "value" part, just like the sempron.  There's nothing *wrong* about that, but it's not the best part for the highest performance.

If 68 had dropped a sempron or A64 2800 into the rig, then maybe I could see some sense in it, but he didn't.


Dual core Opterons being launched Thursday (21st), expect socket 939 Dual Core around June. Yes they will drop into 939 boards with a BIOS update.
Big advantage will be being able to run 4 dimms at full speed at command rate 1.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2005, 10:22:37 AM by Kev367th »
AMD Phenom II X6 1100T
Asus M3N-HT mobo
2 x 2Gb Corsair 1066 DDR2 memory

Offline Ohio43

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about to buy new system?
« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2005, 12:44:57 PM »
Correct me if Im wrong guys, but wasn't there some sort of quirky problem with NForce3?

Offline StarOfAfrica2

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about to buy new system?
« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2005, 12:57:51 PM »
DOH!  I had forgotten that.  I just read an article last month on that too.  I'll see if I can dig it back up.

Offline StarOfAfrica2

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« Reply #33 on: April 19, 2005, 01:26:13 PM »
Well, this isnt the article I read, but it addresses the same issue.  But it only appears to affect newer processors, not older ones.  I know there were some performance issues with the nForce3 150 chipsets vs the 250, but I cant remember what the problems were.  Anyway, heres the article.  This one's from CeBIT.

Quote
PROBLEMS APPEAR to be affecting Athlon 64 revision E chips on some Nforce 3 and Nforce 4 motherboards. Symptoms include motherboard shut down and failure to boot, according to reports here from CeBIT.
Revision E chips from AMD are just released and brings stuff like SSE3 support inside a 90 nanometre die. AMD on the other hand didn't make a big noise about its announcement.

We learned that if you have this Athlon and already have Nforce 3 or Nforce 4 board that there is a big chance that you may encounter problems. We are told that AMD changed its thermal regulation protection and that's what makes it incompatible with at least some of the Nforce 3 and Nforce 4 boards out there.

In order to solve these problems, new motherboards might be necessary and there doesn't appear to be an instant fix. We are attempting to gather more details here in Hannover.

Offline eagl

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about to buy new system?
« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2005, 02:12:30 PM »
This little upgrade writeup is a classic example of what's being recommended for gaming upgrades on a budget.

http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NzU4

$500 towards higher framerates and highest potential for upgradability.  If I recall correctly it's an nforce4 PCI-x board, but there are equivalent nforce3 AGP boards available for the same price.

As for problems inherent to NF3 and NF4, I know that some NF3 and older A64s have problems with running 1T command rate when all 4 memory sockets are filled, but I recall reading something about that being at least in part due to the cpu, not the mobo chipset and that the issue has been dealt with in the current generation of parts.  I run 2 sticks of 512 so I haven't had to deal with it, but if I wanted to add more memory I'd just bump the command rate to 2T and not worry about it.
Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.

Offline humble

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about to buy new system?
« Reply #35 on: April 19, 2005, 06:07:28 PM »
I agree that the 939 board is the "most logical". However over the last 3 years almost all the "cant miss" thoughts have been end run. The "18 month" rule seems more like the "18 week" rule right now. Another issue is the OS behind the dual core. Myunderstanding is that the dual core will have no positive impact on gaming applications and that its possible the 2nd core wont even be accessable under most circumstances. Given the fact that current high end chips are still ~$700 the 1st couple of generations of dual core chips will be at a steep premium. I honestly think by the time I'm ready to upgrade I'll get the same killer deal on a MB/CPU combo I got on the 754....computers are fast becoming like cars....buy a year behind "new" and save 40%....

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Offline humble

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about to buy new system?
« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2005, 06:22:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by eagl
This little upgrade writeup is a classic example of what's being recommended for gaming upgrades on a budget.

http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NzU4

$500 towards higher framerates and highest potential for upgradability.  If I recall correctly it's an nforce4 PCI-x board, but there are equivalent nforce3 AGP boards available for the same price.

As for problems inherent to NF3 and NF4, I know that some NF3 and older A64s have problems with running 1T command rate when all 4 memory sockets are filled, but I recall reading something about that being at least in part due to the cpu, not the mobo chipset and that the issue has been dealt with in the current generation of parts.  I run 2 sticks of 512 so I haven't had to deal with it, but if I wanted to add more memory I'd just bump the command rate to 2T and not worry about it.


Interesting read....personally I wouldnt buy a VIA chipset but thats simply personal experience...obviously they feel its a good board for the bucks. I got my DFI lanparty with a 3200+ for less 6 months ago then the price they quote for both....back then a 939 board was much higher and so were cpu prices.

THe one point I agree with is the support for the "FX" chipset....a much more likely upgrade then a dual core CPU (IMO).  I'm using my old PC3200 mem but basically got a DFI lanparty & 3200+ (754) X800 pro for ~$600

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson

Offline 68DevilM

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« Reply #37 on: April 21, 2005, 11:31:09 AM »
yeah, the reason i stayed clear of via is becuase i heard in here that via has problems when useing creative labs sound cards....

by the way humble, my new system hardware arives today....:D

i fell like a kid the night before christmas:)

Offline humble

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« Reply #38 on: April 21, 2005, 01:32:17 PM »
hehe.....

Have fun :)

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson

Offline 68DevilM

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« Reply #39 on: April 22, 2005, 11:37:44 AM »
hers some beachmarks so far

memory read = 2970mbs
memory write= 1100mbs
memory latency=56.3ns

Offline 68DevilM

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« Reply #40 on: April 22, 2005, 04:03:57 PM »
humble is there a way to bump up my memory read and write?

also what do these numbers mean if anything?

2.5-3-3-8
« Last Edit: April 22, 2005, 04:06:16 PM by 68DevilM »

Offline daMIG

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Hey Guys, Thanks for the thoughts
« Reply #41 on: April 22, 2005, 08:36:31 PM »
68Devil, and the rest, even Humble (jk)

good stuff here.

Sooooo is Anticipation equal to Realization?

Comon,,,,, sweet huh! Happy hunting. Thanks for the great thread.

Offline humble

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« Reply #42 on: April 23, 2005, 12:22:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by 68DevilM
humble is there a way to bump up my memory read and write?

also what do these numbers mean if anything?

2.5-3-3-8


THis is where youneed eagl and the other guys who really understand OCing....the 1st number is the one I think Iunderstand....lower is better. 2.5 memoryis better than 3.0 etc.

The other numbers are memory "timing" in the bios I believe. Basically the faster the memorycan process the more efficient the CPU cycles are. You can alter memory timing and overclock it but youneed real good top end memoryoor its unstable....

Do I have that right guys??

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson

Offline eagl

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« Reply #43 on: April 23, 2005, 05:48:49 AM »
Humble is pretty much right.  Those numbers deal with memory latency and how long the computer waits for the memory to sort out an answer after getting a query.  Memory isn't instantaneous so if you measure the response from a memory stick when you give it an address, the initial response may be just random garbage.  So the motherboard has to wait a certain amount of time.  And then once the answer is there, the quicker it's read the quicker it can go to the next address, so you don't want the answer to be available longer than necessary to be read.  Those latency times adjust the wait time before it's read, how long to expect the answer to be available, and the delays before the next address is requested.

The first number is the typical "CAS level" you hear about and is often advertised as the memory speed.  Cas 2 is usually the best, although there may be CAS 2 memory rated at 2-3-3-8 and another cas 2 stick rated at 2-2-2-6.  The main thing to remember is that in general, the lower the number the better.  Really high speed memory might typically be rated 2-2-2-6.  Some overclockers have noted that some memory runs faster with the last number set at a specific value, not just the lowest number.  I've read that the crucial chips in my computer run best at 2-2-2-10, but people have had good results with the last number anywhere from 8 to 11.

In any case, probably more important than that is the command rate.  It's usually either 1T or 2T, and 1T is faster.  Some people claim that it makes a huge difference, but basically they all affect memory response latency and bandwidth so any one setting by itself shouldn't kill or add tons of performance.  Most athlon 64 systems produced up to now have had serious problems running 1T command rate when there are 4 sticks of memory installed, so you just have to increase it to 2T to get it to work right.  I've read that this issue is actually a problem with the cpu not the mobo or chipset, and that AMD has sorted it out with their latest cpu revisions.

2.5-3-3-8 is just fine for normal memory.  If you want to push it lower, go ahead but test the crap out of it using memtest86 before you boot into windows otherwise you risk hard drive corruption.  Memory errors often don't immediately crash your system but they'll cause random errors and eventually that will kill your operating system or just make things not work right.

Sucky memory will be rated at like 3 5 5 12 or worse, so cas 2.5 is just fine.  Since you're running a single channel memory controller, you may get higher performance gains from fast memory than someone on a dual channel controller, because you're on half the bandwidth so latency on that one channel is a bigger deal.  I wouldn't spend hundreds of extra dollars on faster memory though, especially if you got a socket 754 mobo just to save $30 or so.

As a final note, many motherboards have preset options for memory latency.  "normal" might be 3-4-4-10, "fast" might be 2.5-3-3-10, and "turbo" might be something like 2-3-3-8.  The way to check is to get a utility like cpuz because it can check to see what the memory is running at.  I think memtest86 also reports memory settings.
Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.

Offline daMIG

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68DevilM Wellllllllll?
« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2005, 08:22:47 AM »
How do you keep a fellow techie in suspense?



how's it flying?
Does it render Video movies faster/better?
Are you past the painful setup everyting yet?
do you have to find the keycodes to re-install text twist and Tetrus 4000?

Are ya getting MORE KILLS! (now we are getting down to the good stuff.

So Let us know how ya doing bro!


p.s. thanks Star, humble, eagl,devil68