The Death Penalty, for it or against it

[Toad]

Originally posted by Sandman
Do you really want the government to decide what reasons are valid or not?

No. I never said I did.

In fact, I think I said government should pretty much stay out of it, didn't I?

However, it's clear that the vast, VAST majority of these abortions could be prevented by common, everyday personal responsibility.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Thrawn

Where do we draw the line at when conception actually occures?  will drop.

Exactly.

We will oppose captial punishment of convicted murderers if there is a .000000000000001 % chance that they might be innocent. We must protect this person's right to life.

We will support abortion of human embryos although NO ONE has any idea whatsoever at what point in a pregnancy this embryo becomes a totally innocent person with a right to life equal to that of a convicted murderer.

Logical, eh?

[Toad]

Originally posted by Raider179
Contraception is not 100% full proof. There are still accidental pregnancies even when full precautions are taken.

You are correct. An AGI survey found that 16.9% in one group of abortions was due to failure of contraception despite proper use.

So go ahead and add that to the previously listed  "valid" reasons. 8.2 + 15.9 = 24.1%

Something of which we should all be very proud.

Only 75% of about a MILLION abortions per year are because someone is too stupid or too lazy or too horny to practice effective birth control.

Good a reason as any to wipe out ~700,000 human embryos per year, right?

Anyone of which could already possess that "divine spark" that makes a group of growing cells into a real person.

Be very proud.

[lazs2]

most who favor abortion on demand are those who either think the policy will increase their chances of getting laid (unlikely in most of their cases) or.... are scared to death that they may be held responsible for their actions.

lazs

[Thrawn]

"We will support abortion of human embryos although NO ONE has any idea whatsoever at what point in a pregnancy this embryo becomes a totally innocent person with a right to life equal to that of a convicted murderer."

Toad, abortion and capital punishment can't be mapped on each other.  The pregnant woman isn't a state and a state isn't an individual.

[Raider179]

Originally posted by Toad
You are correct. An AGI survey found that 16.9% in one group of abortions was due to failure of contraception despite proper use.

So go ahead and add that to the previously listed  "valid" reasons. 8.2 + 15.9 = 24.1%

Something of which we should all be very proud.

Only 75% of about a MILLION abortions per year are because someone is too stupid or too lazy or too horny to practice effective birth control.

Good a reason as any to wipe out ~700,000 human embryos per year, right?

Anyone of which could already possess that "divine spark" that makes a group of growing cells into a real person.

Be very proud.

here is some more info from AGI

• 93% of women gave more than one reason. The average number of reasons given was 3.7.


Almost 90% of abortions are performed in the first trimester of
pregnancy (in the first 12 weeks after the first day of the last menstrual period).

An estimated 0.08% of abortions are performed after 24 weeks, when the fetus may be viable (AGI, 1997).

The risk of death when a pregnancy is continued to birth is about 11 times as great as the risk of death from induced abortion.

Each year, about 10 women, on average, die from induced abortion, compared with about 260 who die from pregnancy and childbirth.

Only 17% of abortions are done by married women

http://www.agi-usa.org/presentations/abort_slides.pdf

[Toad]

Originally posted by Thrawn
[BToad, abortion and capital punishment can't be mapped on each other.   [/B]

So sparing a life on the .0000000000001% chance that a murderer is innocent can't be compared as hypocritcal to taking a life when you are 100% unsure if the 100% innocent embryo has achieved "personhood"?

Well, some folks probably can't see the hypocricsy. I'm sure of that.

I'm also sure that it's all to obvious to others.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Raider179
• 93% of women gave more than one reason. The average number of reasons given was 3.7.

[/b]

True.

But of the 93% giving more than one reason, the valid ones were rarely mentioned. Risk to maternal health: 2.8%  Risk to fetal health: 3.3% Other: 2.1%. Even factoring the failed birth control only brings it up to 24% total.

Look, you can't skew this or spin this. You've got 24% of the replies that are in any way valid reasons to abort. The fact that women often gave multiple answers doesn't change that.

The inescapable truth is that the overwhelming vast majority of reasons fall under the "stupid/lazy/horny" umbrella.

Almost 90% of abortions are performed in the first trimester of pregnancy (in the first 12 weeks after the first day of the last menstrual period).

Fetus at the End of 12 Weeks

Length about 3 inches.
Arms, hands, fingers, legs, toes are fully formed.
Nails start to develop; earlobes formed.
Eyes fully developed; tooth sockets and buds in the jaw bone form.
Heartbeat can be detected with special instruments.
Most organs and tissues are present

Couldn't possibly be a person yet, right? Are you 100% certain?

The risk of death when a pregnancy is continued to birth is about 11 times as great as the risk of death from induced abortion.

The risk must be pretty low initially then. Otherwise there wouldn't be any of us left. How many mother's die in a normal childbirth? Got a percentage for that?

Each year, about 10 women, on average, die from induced abortion, compared with about 260 who die from pregnancy and childbirth.

Wow... 270 total pregnancy related deaths?

The preliminary number of births in the United States was 4,019,280 in 2002.

That'd be .0000671% right? You think that is significant?

Only 17% of abortions are done by married women

Could it possibly be the married women are more responsible for their actions? Nah............

[Sandman]

Hmmm... Toad, let me see if I understand this. You're pro-choice and yet you believe the vast majority of women are irresponsible WRT pregnancy.

Care to share a solution to this?

[Toad]

Originally posted by Sandman
. You're pro-choice and yet you believe the vast majority of women are irresponsible WRT pregnancy.

[/b]

No, I didn't say that.

I said it's obvious that the overwhelming number of abortions are performed for reasons that are best described as "lack of personal responsibility".

Hardly the "vast majority of women" at all.

After all, there's maybe a million abortions per year and there's over 140 million women of all ages in the 2000 Census.

Care to share a solution to this?

Do I have solution to 700,000+ abortions every year by too stupid/too lazy/too horny women?

No, I don't have a solution. I have a suggestion though.... like every thing else that's going down the crapper in the US, I think this situation would be improved if the government didn't try to rescue everyone from their own stupidity.

In short, don't subsidize a lack of personal responsibility.

Another suggestion would be to step back and evaluate one's own views.

If one cannot accept the death penalty and works against it because of the .0000000000000000001% chance a convicted murderer might be innocent.....

then shouldn't one be in favor of significantly reducing the number of abortions because of the total uncertainty of when a human embryo becomes a human being?

Reducing them is going to require and emphasis on personal responsibility for both men and women.

[Raider179]

Originally posted by Toad


True.

But of the 93% giving more than one reason, the valid ones were rarely mentioned. Risk to maternal health: 2.8%  Risk to fetal health: 3.3% Other: 2.1%. Even factoring the failed birth control only brings it up to 24% total.

Look, you can't skew this or spin this. You've got 24% of the replies that are in any way valid reasons to abort. The fact that women often gave multiple answers doesn't change that.

The inescapable truth is that the overwhelming vast majority of reasons fall under the "stupid/lazy/horny" umbrella.

Fetus at the End of 12 Weeks

Length about 3 inches.
Arms, hands, fingers, legs, toes are fully formed.
Nails start to develop; earlobes formed.
Eyes fully developed; tooth sockets and buds in the jaw bone form.
Heartbeat can be detected with special instruments.
Most organs and tissues are present

Couldn't possibly be a person yet, right? Are you 100% certain?

The risk must be pretty low initially then. Otherwise there wouldn't be any of us left. How many mother's die in a normal childbirth? Got a percentage for that?

Wow... 270 total pregnancy related deaths?

The preliminary number of births in the United States was 4,019,280 in 2002.

That'd be .0000671% right? You think that is significant?




Could it possibly be the married women are more responsible for their actions? Nah............ [/B]

1) To me, its the mother's choice ultimately whether to raise the baby or not. The father might have some say but it is her decision. I would never try to second guess someone who is in that position and I have known a few girls who have had them.  To even suggest that they are murdering a baby is unfair and presumptous of you. You have no idea of what their life is like.
You have no idea the kind of household that child would have to grow up in. You don't no if the husband beats the mother or anything like that.

Did you see the stats on how half of all abortions are done by women below double the poverty line?

sorry but I subscribe to the viable camp. If it cant live without the mother's umbilical cord then its not a baby yet.

100% certain? you know what they say about the only things that are 100% certain in life right? death and taxes.

Not signifgant other than any given pregnancy is more dangerous to the mother than the abortion.

Is it that they are more responsible or is it because they have a good man that will help them raise the child? 83% occur on single/divorced/seperated women, that to me indicates a lot of these take place because of lack of a man to help and not from laziness,horniness, or stupidity as you put it.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Raider179
You have no idea of what their life is like.

[/b]

You are too much man.

So their personal view of their own life circumstances is the only deciding factor?

So, do you also approve of killing a otherwise normal baby while it is being delivered if the Mom suddenly changes her mind due to "what her life is like?"

No, of course you don't. That's ridiculous, because at that point YOU personally consider the baby a "human being" and killing it would be murder.

But YOU personally have no idea of when an embryo becomes a human being. All you have is a guess, with nothing to support your position either way.

Rather than err on the side of safety, of life, and giving the fetus "the benefit of the doubt", you have some purely arbitrary point before which abortion is "OK" with you.

Again, you have NOTHING to base your opinion on except... it feels ok to you.

 

You have no idea the kind of household that child would have to grow up in. You don't no if the husband beats the mother or anything like that.

[/b]

No, I don't. Is it your position that any pregnancy in a family or relationship where the man has hit the woman should be aborted? Is that what you are saying?

Did you see the stats on how half of all abortions are done by women below double the poverty line?

[/b]

Did you know a  trojan is less than a dollar?

Make excuse all you like. Birth control is cheap or free. Under the federal Family Planning Expansion Project (FPEP), Planned Parenthood offers birth control supplies to the poor.

It still all boils down to personal responsibility no matter how many lame excuse you throw out.

sorry but I subscribe to the viable camp. If it cant live without the mother's umbilical cord then its not a baby yet.

[/b]

That's fine, everyone's entitled to an opinion. Because that's all you have, a totally unscientific opinion. You may be right, you may be wrong. Coin toss. Heads you win, tails a human being dies. That's cool with you though, right?

Not signifgant other than any given pregnancy is more dangerous to the mother than the abortion.

[/b]

Is any given birth more dangerous to the fetus than an abortion?

83% occur on single/divorced/seperated women, that to me indicates a lot of these take place because of lack of a man to help and not from laziness,horniness, or stupidity as you put it.

Really? You're aware of how a woman gets pregnant, right? Are you saying single/divorced/separated women get pregnant because they lack a man to help?

Are you really saying that?

REALLY?

[Pooh21]

if its good enough for babys and brain dead crazy bulimics. Then it should be good enough for most criminals, especially the breaking on the wheel.

[Raider179]

Originally posted by Toad


You are too much man.

So their personal view of their own life circumstances is the only deciding factor?

So, do you also approve of killing a otherwise normal baby while it is being delivered if the Mom suddenly changes her mind due to "what her life is like?"

No, of course you don't. That's ridiculous, because at that point YOU personally consider the baby a "human being" and killing it would be murder.

But YOU personally have no idea of when an embryo becomes a human being. All you have is a guess, with nothing to support your position either way.

Rather than err on the side of safety, of life, and giving the fetus "the benefit of the doubt", you have some purely arbitrary point before which abortion is "OK" with you.

Again, you have NOTHING to base your opinion on except... it feels ok to you.

 
[/b]

No, I don't. Is it your position that any pregnancy in a family or relationship where the man has hit the woman should be aborted? Is that what you are saying?

[/b]

Did you know a  trojan is less than a dollar?

Make excuse all you like. Birth control is cheap or free. Under the federal Family Planning Expansion Project (FPEP), Planned Parenthood offers birth control supplies to the poor.

It still all boils down to personal responsibility no matter how many lame excuse you throw out.

[/b]

That's fine, everyone's entitled to an opinion. Because that's all you have, a totally unscientific opinion. You may be right, you may be wrong. Coin toss. Heads you win, tails a human being dies. That's cool with you though, right?


[/b]

Is any given birth more dangerous to the fetus than an abortion?



Really? You're aware of how a woman gets pregnant, right? Are you saying single/divorced/separated women get pregnant because they lack a man to help?

Are you really saying that?

REALLY? [/B]

Yep, their life their fetus, their decision.

You say I base it on nothing but I do. I base it on that it cant survive without the mother until viability and even at that point it's tenuous whether they will survive or not. You might be right that it's a point but arbitrary its not. It's the selected point at which a fetus could have a chance at surviving outside of the womb.

It might be a guess but nothing is certain in this life.

Did you know 50% of all pregancies are unplanned. And I believe 86% of those said they used contraception. Contraception doesnt stop pregnancy its just helps prevent it.

Nope not saying every abusive relationship should have an abortion, I am saying that you don't know what goes on in that household so you have no clue whether bringing a child into it would be a good or bad idea.

So if my opinion is based on no scientific facts what pray tell is yours based on? nothing right just erring on the side of life? Damn thats an overused statement.

You know what I am saying about that. Those women might have carried that baby to term if the man hadnt disappeared. But thats ok I see you are putting most of the blame on the woman anyway.

"Do I have solution to 700,000+ abortions every year by too stupid/too lazy/too horny women? "


Don't get me wrong I understand what you are saying about personal responsibility but I dont see a solution with that route. Making it illegal does nothing. Giving out condoms does nothing. Free birth control does nothing. You know what I think might actually make a difference? Getting rid of Poverty. Don't know which would be harder to stop but I guarantee you the two are related.

[Raider179]

Originally posted by Raider179


Is it that they are more responsible or is it because they have a good man that will help them raise the child? 83% occur on single/divorced/seperated women, that to me indicates a lot of these take place because of lack of a man to help and not from laziness,horniness, or stupidity as you put it.

Nice way to cut my quote to take it out of context. lol