The Death Penalty, for it or against it

[Raider179]

Originally posted by Toad


The number ONE thing is to reinstate an attitude of personal responsibility in this country instead of making excuses for irresponsibility. This goes throughout our society, not just in the area of abortion. For example, I'd be in favor of mandatory jail time for drunk drivers and I don't mean "over the weekend".

Secondly, expand birth control availability. Make it free for the asking or nearly so. Certainly for those in the lower income groups. Expand sex ed in the schools with an emphasis on RESPONSIBILITY.

Promote full term carrying of the child.

Support this by expanding and simplyfying adoption.Further support this by providing significant aid to mothers that choose to keep their child. Provide child care for the working ones. Provide more and better counseling and support groups.

I think I have better ideas than promoting/condoning abortion as a necessary quick fix for personal irresponsibility. That's all I've seen from you. [/B]

Man what a pipe dream. That just say no thing worked really well with the war on drugs didnt it? Oh great so give them more money to have more kids.  You don't want to use your taxes to support abortion I don't want to use mine to let some crackhead raise 10 kids.

[lazs2]

torque... would you suggest that the parents be screened for genetic makeup to determine if they might have a worthwhile baby or not?

Or, are you saying that parents that are screwed up or stupid will allways have screwed up or stupid children with no slight chance the child will far exceed either of their abilities?

my take is that they murderer is fully formed and lost and needs to be put out of his misery..   The inocent baby is an unknown factor... a possible savior of all humankind.  Maybe even the guy who invents an octane booster that will allow me to run 13 to 1 pistons on the street.


and.... I don't want to support a crackhead with 10 kids either.. I don't want to support anyone who has a kid out of wedlock... certainly not more than one.  I am not a fan of the welfare system.  I believe that the combo of welfare system and the option of abortion are what has caused the mess we are in in regards to 10 kids from a crack mother.

lazs

[scott123]

What if one of the crackheads  10 kids is the saviour of mankind...lol

[lazs2]

what if they are?   We will know soon enough.   If they were aborted we would never know.

Unless you are saying that it is impossible for ghetto kids to ever amount to anything?   Maybe you are saying that if we don't give her money for her crack habit.... the kids will starve to death?

lazs

[Toad]

Originally posted by Skydancer
Besides Mr Toad you haven't addressed the issue of pregnancy arising from rape.

[/b]

I have. There's that category I mentioned named "Other".

Nor do you seem to question the reason why a woman might want to postpone child birth. Maybe she is in an abusive relationship, has health issues.

[/b]

So? Pregnance is NOT difficult to prevent. These reasons SHOULD make one even more careful.

Is using contraception being responsible and it fails. The reasons for unplanned pregnancy are myriad and not all the result of stupidness or laziness.

[/b]

Do you read the posts or just jump in and spew? Contraception failure when used correctly accounts for about ~17% of the abortions according to the AGI study. Coupled with the ~8% total of others reasons given, I mentioned upthread that there's apparently 25% AT MOST that have a justifiable reason.

That leaves ~75% attributable to what? Stupidity, Laziness or Horniness pretty well cover the 75%.

You might try reading the thread.  

Realy what understanding of these peoples circumstances do you realy show? None other than to spout your own prejudice it seems.

[/b]

I understand this, which as obvious as it is has apparently escaped you.

MOST abortions result from a failure of personal responsibility at the most basic level.

I KNOW that no one in this thread knows for CERTAIN if abortion AT ANY STAGE of pregnancy results in the death of a human being. NO ONE KNOWS FOR CERTAIN. Yet this possiblity is discarded as unimportant while hypocritical people oppose the death penalty for a convicted criminal on the .00000000000001% chance that he/she may be innocent.

I understand that "caring" people like you think that abortion is an "eraser" for a minor error in personal judgement. I know that that attitude will result in an ever increasing number of abortions; there is no way that attitude can reduce the number of abortions.

Predjudice? Get the plank out of your eye.

As for linking the death penalty to abortion issues well I'm sorry but the two are seperate.

[/b]

What a laugable statement. IMO, that just shows you lie to yourself.

[Skydancer]

Ok so assuming your figures are correct. That still leaves 25% of people who have got pregnant in ways that are not attributable to your definition of laziness or stupidity. Are you saying that those 25% have no right to decide whether or not to continue with the unplanned pregnancy? Cmon. Your morals are not everyone elses. What makes you so sure you are correct, and what gives you the right to tell other people how to live their lives? I don't think Abortion is an eraser. Women have to live with the consequences of their actions / mistakes for ever, and that is hard. I speak from personal experience of working with girls in this situation. I do believe that for some, abortion is the lesser of two evils and does give them a chance to get it right the next time rather than bring up an unloved unwanted child in a far from ideal situation. Abortion is a tough call for many young women but they ought to have the option rather than having that option taken away by people with high moralistic self righteous opinions who likely as not have never had to face the situation these women find themselves in.

And yeah I am a caring person, I earn my ( small ) keep trying to make a better world for people who haven't had my advantages in life and I'm damn proud of it.

Now as for the death penalty I don't advocate that. Not because I think its soft on the criminal but because I don't think 1] that the risk of killing even one innocent person is worth it and 2] I actualy think being made to live with what you have done in very uncomfortable circumstances and regularly reminded of it is a far tougher sentence than escaping via the gallows electric chair whatever. As I've already said Prison for murderers should be tougher than it currently is.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Raider179
Man what a pipe dream. That just say no thing worked really well with the war on drugs didnt it?

[/b]

The "solutions" I posted are my personal view. They are totally unlike the "war on drugs" but you know that. For example, where did I suggest we arrest and jail abortions users?

You are reduced to red herrings as your best argumentative techique.

And the permissive attitude towards abortion that you and others display has led to what?




 

Oh great so give them more money to have more kids.

[/b]

That's not what I'm proposing. There are systems out there that are far more efficient in this regard that the current Federal Governement system. There are work-welfare states that provide child care and other policies that break the "bear children for money cycle.

Now, let's see YOUR solution. Is the best you've got "More Abortions!"

[Toad]

Originally posted by Skydancer
Are you saying that those 25% have no right to decide whether or not to continue with the unplanned pregnancy?

[/b]

Without a doubt, you are one of the least diligent posters on this board.

No, that is not what I said. Go back and read my posts in this thread and you'll find I have answered this question more than once.

You are very close to being one of the few people on my ignore list. You obviously do not read the posts to which you attempt to respond. That is just unpardonable IMO, and leaves no basis for discussion.

The rest of your post reflects the same ignorance of what has been said in this thread. As a result, it's not worth a response.

[Skydancer]

Didn't I read this part straight? And I quote

"I mentioned upthread that there's apparently 25% AT MOST that have a justifiable reason."

I also think I got you right when I say you are an anti abortionist pro lifer whatever you call it! Gleaned fromn reading the gist of your posts.

So what about these 25% what should they do? Do you want to take away their right to decide?

By the way you realy do come accross sometimes as a pompous rear end!

Actualy I think you have jumped to a conclusion about me based on what others say and don't read my posts either. Or at best you respond in a highly selective manner quoting only the bits that suit your self righteous argument!

Right I'm off to shoot small birds and play with my non existant labrador like all englishmen do on your planet! sheesh the world according to Toad!

[rshubert]

Originally posted by Skydancer
I do believe that for some, abortion is the lesser of two evils and does give them a chance to get it right the next time rather than bring up an unloved unwanted child in a far from ideal situation... Now as for the death penalty I don't advocate that. Not because I think its soft on the criminal but because I don't think 1] that the risk of killing even one innocent person is worth it and 2] I actualy think being made to live with what you have done in very uncomfortable circumstances and regularly reminded of it is a far tougher sentence than escaping via the gallows electric chair whatever.

Don't you see the moral dissonance of those two positions?  You want to give a 15-year-old the right to kill an unborn child (the very essence of innocence), while you advocate that we must not kill criminals to avoid the possibility of executing an innocent person.

Those are your words, and apparently your beliefs.  Do you ever stop to try to figure out the single moral basis behind those beliefs?  For a belief system to be valid, there must be a common moral thread--a basic law, if you will.  Your position has none.

[Skydancer]

No I have no single belief system I don't follow dogma, I don't believe in a one law fits all solution and I don't belive I have a god given moral superiority to those kids I work with. I believe each case should be taken on merit and the solutions are varied depending on people's circumstance and needs. For some an abortion might not be a good solution for others it might be the only viable solution.

As for linking Abortion to murder it depends on whether you consider a collection of cells an unborn child! Secondly and I'll ask again just in case someone answers. What if that 15 year old had been raped. ( I ask because I'm dealing with a young woman in just that situation, Are you? ) I don't think it is murder.

I don't think the death penalty is punishment I think it is an easy solution.

[Toad]

If you read the entire history of my posts on this BBS, you will find I do not make personal attacks. For example, I have never directly called someone an idiot. So write this one down.

There's a first time for everything.

You sir, are an Idiot.

You have placed yourself on my very short Ignore list.

You are unable to debate because you either have no reading comprehension at all or you simply fail to read what is posted.

To whit:

Skydancer: Didn't I read this part straight? And I quote

"I mentioned upthread that there's apparently 25% AT MOST that have a justifiable reason."...

.....So what about these 25% what should they do? Do you want to take away their right to decide?

[/b]

You are unable to understand the simplest of positions.

I will recap two of the posts I've made in this thread, although I seriously doubt you'll be able to comprehend my position this time since you didn't understand it the first time.

04-20-2005 03:08 PMToad:
I am opposed to abortion in most cases. There are a few circumstances that call for an exception.

04-20-2005 03:08 PM Toad:Now, am I willing to let a woman decide for herself whether she wants an abortion or not?

Yes, I am. It is her decision and my personal belief is that she will be called upon to explain it by a higher power than myself.

As for what I quote from your posts, it's true I quote selectively. I take the MOST idiotic statements and refute them. However, I am not clipping anything that would make them appear something they are not. I just take the most obivious idiocy refute it.

The numerous minor idiocies I just don't have time to address. Sorry.

Here's an example of a minor idiocy that I don't have the time to illustrate for you in the hope that you might realize what a fool you make of yourself. It speaks for itself though. Although I will say that the interesting Englishmen I know all own Labradors. Obviously, you don't. QED.

Sky: I'm off to shoot small birds and play with my non existant labrador like all englishmen do on your planet!

[/b]

Well, fool, this is good-bye. You're on my ignore list. Your inability to form a cogent argument or post anything interesting whatsoever in your 700+ posts as Skydancer and how ever many in your banned Zulu7 account has put you over the top.

When you come back in your next shade account, do try to show just a bit of elementary intelligence and I'll give you another shot at it.

Toodle-pip.

[Skydancer]

Fine by me !

Oh yeah you can't hear me you pompous humourless wazzock!

[lazs2]

ah.... so you weren't really losing the arguement (yet again).... you were just making another "joke".

lazs

[myelo]

Speaking of crime and abortion, anyone read “Freakonomics?”.