Author Topic: The Death Penalty, for it or against it (Read 3167 times)

bustr · « **Reply #135 on:** April 21, 2005, 07:35:01 PM »

Raider,

If abortion could be made into a (hook the woman up and she or you can pull the lever and watch), would you pull the lever and watch the (whatever) be wiped out in graphic and glorious detail? While we are at it gents, all you guys in this thread want to answer by posting a yes or no? I'll make it easier, how many of you can break your cat or dogs neck to put it out of it's misery after it's spine is broken. Is that easier?

All of you are arguing theory and showing how honestly well educated you are for and against an action that you take for granted someone else will perform when the time comes. This is the crux of this issue. How many women themselves or their husbands\boyfreinds would pull the lever if they had to hook the girl up and look (it) in the eye to do the deed?

I don't trust a doctor(human being) who is willing to so easily perform this on women. I get to wondering if a person like that would find it just as easy to pull my plug if I was in a diminished state. Life is not a vacume, actions are not isolated in their ongoing affects.

Toad · « **Reply #136 on:** April 21, 2005, 07:46:18 PM »

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Originally posted by Raider179
I base it on that it cant survive without the mother until viability and even at that point it's tenuous whether they will survive or not.

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Good for you. You still have no idea if it has become a human being or not at that arbitrary point. No one knows. It's just a comfortable point for you personally where you feel it's OK to kill it.

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Did you know 50% of all pregancies are unplanned. And I believe 86% of those said they used contraception.

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1. 50% are unplanned merely highlights the lack of personal responsibility. It weakens your case.

2. 86% use contraception? AGI study said 17% claim they used contraception correctly and still conceived. Big difference. This stat weakens your argument just as the first one does.

If you put a trojan on your head, it's highly unlikely to prevent conception.

Once again, the inability to use contraception CORRECTLY highlights the lack of personal responsiblity. Forgot to take the pill today? Better use a condom.

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I am saying that you don't know what goes on in that household so you have no clue whether bringing a child into it would be a good or bad idea.

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As Laz pointed out, US couples are going to Russia to adopt children. My neighbor across the street adopted a Chechen girl.

If the US were to simplify adoption rules, I think we'd all be better off.

One thing is CERTAIN in my opinion, however. An aborted human being is killed without ever having a chance. A kid born into a dysfunctional home HAS a chance. A chance for adoption, a chance to triumph despite his disadvantages. Dead human embryos never get that chance.

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just erring on the side of life?

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Yep, that's me. Erring on the side of life. There are a lot of overused statements; overuse doesn't make them less valid or untrue. Usually, it's the opposite.

I find those who would work to end capital punishment but work for more abortion rights to be the very definition of hypocrisy.

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Those women might have carried that baby to term if the man hadnt disappeared.

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You've got no stats on this at all. It's another leap for an excuse that you can't substantiate. Out of the 700,000+ abortions, how many fall into this category?

Where are the AGI stats on "my man left me" responses?

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But thats ok I see you are putting most of the blame on the woman anyway.

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Hardly; look up in the thread. I said we need more personal responsibility from both men and women. It never pays to subsidize something you want less of, however.

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Don't get me wrong I understand what you are saying about personal responsibility but I dont see a solution with that route. Making it illegal does nothing. Giving out condoms does nothing. Free birth control does nothing. You know what I think might actually make a difference?

Making abortion easier DOES NOTHING but encourage more abortions. It's "the easy way out". It makes personal responsibility less important.

What's the message when "Don't worry, we'll get you an abortion. Everything will be fine; it's easy and fast."

What behavior will that approach encourage?

Raider179 · « **Reply #137 on:** April 21, 2005, 08:02:15 PM »

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Originally posted by Toad

Good for you. You still have no idea if it has become a human being or not at that arbitrary point. No one knows. It's just a comfortable point for you personally where you feel it's OK to kill it.

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1. 50% are unplanned merely highlights the lack of personal responsibility. It weakens your case.

2. 86% use contraception? AGI study said 17% claim they used contraception correctly and still conceived. Big difference. This stat weakens your argument just as the first one does.

If you put a trojan on your head, it's highly unlikely to prevent conception.

Once again, the inability to use contraception CORRECTLY highlights the lack of personal responsiblity. Forgot to take the pill today? Better use a condom.

[/b]

As Laz pointed out, US couples are going to Russia to adopt children. My neighbor across the street adopted a Chechen girl.

If the US were to simplify adoption rules, I think we'd all be better off.

One thing is CERTAIN in my opinion, however. An aborted human being is killed without ever having a chance. A kid born into a dysfunctional home HAS a chance. A chance for adoption, a chance to triumph despite his disadvantages. Dead human embryos never get that chance.

[/b]

Yep, that's me. Erring on the side of life. There are a lot of overused statements; overuse doesn't make them less valid or untrue. Usually, it's the opposite.

I find those who would work to end capital punishment but work for more abortion rights to be the very definition of hypocrisy.

[/b]

You've got no stats on this at all. It's another leap for an excuse that you can't substantiate. Out of the 700,000+ abortions, how many fall into this category?

Where are the AGI stats on "my man left me" responses?

[/b]

Hardly; look up in the thread. I said we need more personal responsibility from both men and women. It never pays to subsidize something you want less of, however.

Making abortion easier DOES NOTHING but encourage more abortions. It's "the easy way out". It makes personal responsibility less important.

What's the message when "Don't worry, we'll get you an abortion. Everything will be fine; it's easy and fast."

What behavior will that approach encourage? [/B]

What exactly is "my case"?

oh ok so 17% that used contraception and still conceived? So you gonna add that into the 24%? thats what 41% now?

Your CERTAIN its your opinion? lol.

Come on Erring on the side of life was so Terri Shiavo.

You see it as killing something I see it as stopping something and therein lies our difference.

I am also for the death penalty so I dont fall into that hypocrasy thing. Actually don't think its used enough but thats for another time.

here is what I said

Those women might have carried that baby to term if the man hadnt disappeared.

Now notice the qualifier "MIGHT"... dont need stats or AGI

I did look in the thread this is what I saw.

"Do I have solution to 700,000+ abortions every year by too stupid/too lazy/too horny women? "

I think this is a gross overgeneralization.

But lets just agree to disagree. No way either of us will be convinced the other way. Appreciate the debate though

Holden McGroin · « **Reply #138 on:** April 21, 2005, 09:49:32 PM »

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Originally posted by Raider179
I base it on that it cant survive without the mother until viability and even at that point it's tenuous whether they will survive or not. You might be right that it's a point but arbitrary its not. It's the selected point at which a fetus could have a chance at surviving outside of the womb.

Just my 2cts, but viability is different on a Wyoming sheep ranch from viability in the neo natal at Johns-Hopkins.

a law defining right from wrong should not depend on such things. It should depend on what is right and what is wrong.

Toad · « **Reply #139 on:** April 21, 2005, 09:59:57 PM »

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Originally posted by Raider179
What exactly is "my case"?

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I'd say your case is that there is an excuse for each and every one. IMO.

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oh ok so 17% that used contraception and still conceived? So you gonna add that into the 24%? thats what 41% now?

No, I'm not going to add it into the 24%. Know why? No you don't.

It's because I ALREADY did. If you'd read my posts you'd realize that. You quoted it once before but obviously you didn't read it.

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Come on Erring on the side of life was so Terri Shiavo.

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Is that supposed to be a negative? I'd much rather err on the side of life WHEN THERE IS NO CERTAINTY. You have no certainty on when a human embryo becomes a person. Yet you casually sweep that aside. Why? In ~75% of the cases it comes down to convenience. Be proud.

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You see it as killing something I see it as stopping something and therein lies our difference.

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Yes, I say you're killing a growing human embryo. As cells divide and multiply, your looking at "life" of some sort.

You say you're stopping something. What are you stopping if not life?

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Now notice the qualifier "MIGHT"... dont need stats or AGI

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If wishes were horses then beggars MIGHT ride.

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I think this is a gross overgeneralization.

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OK, then you explain these reasons for me. I think they all fall into "too lazy/too stupid/too horny". Show me some rational plausible reasons why the use of common birth control methods or even just waiting until they found a trojan (abstinence until properly prepared) wouldn't have avoided an abortion in woman giving these reasons:

1. Wants to postpone childbearing: 25.5%

2. Wants no (more) children: 7.9%

3. Cannot afford a baby: 21.3%

4. Having a child will disrupt education or job: 10.8%

5. Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy: 14.1%

6. Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy: 12.2%

Where would birth control or abstinence failed these people? None of these are reasons that could be construed as "unforseen" in any way.

For example, a woman MUST know whether she "wants no (more) children before she drops her drawers.

Please do explain.

Lizking · « **Reply #140 on:** April 21, 2005, 10:20:43 PM »

"Too lazy or horny to take precautions"-95%
"Want to get pregnant so he will marry me"-5%

Excuses are excuses, no matter what they are. If you open your legs or stick your wee-wee in it, you are overtly accepting the fact that a child may be the result. As the judge will tell you, "ignorance is no excuse".

As for the Death Penalty, I am against it, only because of the process leading up to it's implementation.

Raider179 · « **Reply #141 on:** April 21, 2005, 11:01:41 PM »

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Originally posted by Toad

I'd say your case is that there is an excuse for each and every one. IMO.

No, I'm not going to add it into the 24%. Know why? No you don't.

It's because I ALREADY did. If you'd read my posts you'd realize that. You quoted it once before but obviously you didn't read it.

[/b]

Is that supposed to be a negative? I'd much rather err on the side of life WHEN THERE IS NO CERTAINTY. You have no certainty on when a human embryo becomes a person. Yet you casually sweep that aside. Why? In ~75% of the cases it comes down to convenience. Be proud.

[/b]

Yes, I say you're killing a growing human embryo. As cells divide and multiply, your looking at "life" of some sort.

You say you're stopping something. What are you stopping if not life?

[/b]

If wishes were horses then beggars MIGHT ride.

[/b]

OK, then you explain these reasons for me. I think they all fall into "too lazy/too stupid/too horny". Show me some rational plausible reasons why the use of common birth control methods or even just waiting until they found a trojan (abstinence until properly prepared) wouldn't have avoided an abortion in woman giving these reasons:

1. Wants to postpone childbearing: 25.5%

2. Wants no (more) children: 7.9%

3. Cannot afford a baby: 21.3%

4. Having a child will disrupt education or job: 10.8%

5. Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy: 14.1%

6. Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy: 12.2%

Where would birth control or abstinence failed these people? None of these are reasons that could be construed as "unforseen" in any way.

For example, a woman MUST know whether she "wants no (more) children before she drops her drawers.

Please do explain. [/B]

Like I said neither of us will convince the other.

just to finish out though

I do not feel there is an excuse for them all, I just believe in their right to choose when to bear a child to term. I feel it's no one else's business. you can say its murder or whatever but its just not what I believe. Like I said I know girls that have had them and they were by no means murderers. Hopefully no one you know will ever go through that or you might feel differently. Sometimes people do the wrong thing for the right reasons.

Lizking · « **Reply #142 on:** April 21, 2005, 11:04:39 PM »

Regardless of your beliefs, they killed a human with forethought. That is murder. You can justify it how you like, or just accept it, but the taking of a human life through concious action is defined as murder.

The question of whether it is "justified" is debatable, but the fact of the action is not.

Tumor · « **Reply #143 on:** April 21, 2005, 11:18:55 PM »

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Originally posted by Toad

If you put a trojan on your head, it's highly unlikely to prevent conception.

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AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

Toad · « **Reply #144 on:** April 22, 2005, 12:38:15 AM »

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Originally posted by Raider179
Like I said I know girls that have had them and they were by no means murderers.

The overwhelming odds are that they were either stupid, lazy or too horny to properly use birth control.

That's the crux of the issue.

You want to discuss the "after the fact" aspect.

Bottom line is that if they hadn't been stupid/lazy/horny they never would have found themselves in that position in the first place.

But our society... like you.... says.."Poor, poor lass.... just get an abortion. No muss, no fuss. Go on with your life."

Now, is that response is likely to engender more or less abortion in you opinion?

lazs2 · « **Reply #145 on:** April 22, 2005, 08:51:39 AM »

well... this is getting good... the liberals seem to be saying that it is allright to abort the poor and the minority... the former because.... well.. they are poor and a baby will make em poorer but... just because they are poor they should still have a government protected right to screw their brains out and have the government clean up... the latter because... well... nobody wants minority babies so they deserve to die.

So... why is this not seen as government sponsored genocide against the poor and the colored?

as for the death penalty? would it be ok if women got to choose wether to have their children on death row executed?

a new born is not "viable" despite being cut loose from the umbilical... it still depends on it's parents. What if it cries too much or dirty diapers make a mother nausous? why should she have to go through that? simply let the lump of cells starve.... How can it be human if it can't even feed itself much less talk?

if 75% or so of abortions are for lazy or stupid reasons and we accept that amount of innocent killing for such reasons... doesn't 1% or so mistakes on executions to protect society seem like a very small trifle?

lazs

Skydancer · « **Reply #146 on:** April 22, 2005, 09:08:02 AM »

Not very trifling if you happen to be one of that 1% of innocent people who get the chop! Not that trifling for their families and relatives either.

Make the guilty realy suffer. Prison for life no nice facilities that the other offenders get and a reminder everyday about what they have done and the consequences. Death for the guilty is the easy way out and an irreprable injustice for the innocent!

As for the abortion thing I'm not a woman ( though I'm sure you'll disagree Lazs

) So I don't realy think its for me to make the decision. It's up to that half of the population to decide on that one, in my humble opinion.

Toad · « **Reply #147 on:** April 22, 2005, 09:54:41 AM »

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Originally posted by Skydancer
As for the abortion thing I'm not a woman ( though I'm sure you'll disagree Lazs ) So I don't realy think its for me to make the decision. It's up to that half of the population to decide on that one, in my humble opinion.

You're neither a convicted murderer on death row nor a judge passing sentence on said murderer yet you feel obligated to take a stand on that issue.

Need to dodge the abortion issue though, right? Can't take a position on when a human embryo becomes a person because that's someone else's decision.

You see it don't you? I don't have to say it?

Skydancer · « **Reply #148 on:** April 22, 2005, 10:33:20 AM »

I don't have a womb. I'm not likely to be a mother. I don't have to support that child for the rest of my life. It's not my body that is affected nor my emotional wellbeing.

But what if a girl is raped, In dire circumstances financialy, emotionaly, in her life in general. Add to her problems by giving her a kid to look after too? Oh how very noble and principled.

If you worked with some of the young women I do and saw the lifes they have to lead, not always their own fault, then maybe you'd respond the same as me? Maybe?

Yeah I believe they have a right to choose. I also believe that as a youth worker I have a responsibility to educate them and support them to make the choice that is right for them. Not condem them out of hand because of some moral principle.

Casca · « **Reply #149 on:** April 22, 2005, 10:36:35 AM »

For the death penalty:

Take, as an example, John Couey who buried the little Lunsford girl alive after raping her (note: the presumption of innocence is a legal conceit that is not accorded to the individual by the cops or the prosecutors nor by myself after he led them to the body).

If the facts of this case turn out to be consistant with the way they appear to be with the available information, execution of this individual is simple justice.

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Originally posted by oboe
I always thought the Dems and Repubs positions on abortion should be exactly reversed, and then their positions would be more consistent with their overall positions on personal freedom vs govt controls.

Well there is that and also the fact that they are killing little Democrats.