Author Topic: The Death Penalty, for it or against it  (Read 3166 times)

Offline Raider179

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The Death Penalty, for it or against it
« Reply #180 on: April 25, 2005, 03:24:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad



 Coupled with the ~8% total of others reasons given, I mentioned upthread that there's apparently 25% AT MOST that have a justifiable reason.

B]


Again that is your opinion and is not and should not be stated as fact. I personally also feel that not having enough money is a very justfiable reason to not have a child.

I can already hear you talking about using birth control or whatever. so save us both the time.

Offline Raider179

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The Death Penalty, for it or against it
« Reply #181 on: April 25, 2005, 03:29:10 PM »
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Originally posted by Toad


Now, let's see YOUR solution. Is the best you've got "More Abortions!"


My solution? hmmm where did I ever say there was a problem? I think its fine the way it is. I only said getting rid of poverty would help reduce the number of them.

Offline Toad

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The Death Penalty, for it or against it
« Reply #182 on: April 25, 2005, 03:32:46 PM »
Yes, I've noticed you have no problem with personal irresponsibility, particularly irresponsibility that leads to abortion.

You are right that we will never agree. The fact that you see no problem defines the difference between us.
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Offline Toad

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The Death Penalty, for it or against it
« Reply #183 on: April 25, 2005, 03:33:38 PM »
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Originally posted by Raider179
I personally also feel that not having enough money is a very justfiable reason to not have a child.


But obviously not enough of a reason to require personal responsiblity.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Raider179

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« Reply #184 on: April 25, 2005, 03:37:35 PM »
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Originally posted by Toad


You are right that we will never agree. The fact that you see no problem defines the difference between us.


Yep said that on what page 2?

Offline Raider179

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« Reply #185 on: April 25, 2005, 03:38:29 PM »
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Originally posted by Toad
But obviously not enough of a reason to require personal responsiblity.


How do you require personal responsibility? Make them have the kid? oh yeah that will teach them. lol

Offline Toad

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« Reply #186 on: April 25, 2005, 04:11:47 PM »
How do you require pesonal responsibility? Lots of ways. How did your parents do it with you?

Your solution is basically "all the abortions you want!"

Lol right back at ya. You can't seriously believe this is good for our society.

I hope.
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Offline Skydancer

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The Death Penalty, for it or against it
« Reply #187 on: April 25, 2005, 06:04:11 PM »
Lazs I  was losing nothing.

Unlike I suspect Mr Toad, I actualy deal with kids in these situations all the time. Thats why I will not take the high moral anti abortionist stance. I may not actualy like the idea of abortion but I see the disastrous results of unwanted pregnancy and as I said have one young woman who is pregnant resulting from rape and that tends to open the mind on this issue. I do defend a womans right to choose. I also think if applicable the male partner should be part of the decision. What I don't do is tell those kids what to do. They have to do what's right for them.

Mr Toad wants to take that personal right to choose away because of his moral stance. I would have thought you of all people would have been against his line of argument!

Now I'm not going to take one high moral view and then link it to every situation. Each issue is different despite what Mr Toad says. It aint a one size fits all world.

Offline GREENTENERAL

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The Death Penalty, for it or against it
« Reply #188 on: April 25, 2005, 09:04:07 PM »
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Originally posted by Skydancer
Lazs I  was losing nothing.

Unlike I suspect Mr Toad, I actualy deal with kids in these situations all the time. Thats why I will not take the high moral anti abortionist stance. I may not actualy like the idea of abortion but I see the disastrous results of unwanted pregnancy and as I said have one young woman who is pregnant resulting from rape and that tends to open the mind on this issue. I do defend a womans right to choose. I also think if applicable the male partner should be part of the decision. What I don't do is tell those kids what to do. They have to do what's right for them.

Mr Toad wants to take that personal right to choose away because of his moral stance. I would have thought you of all people would have been against his line of argument!

Now I'm not going to take one high moral view and then link it to every situation. Each issue is different despite what Mr Toad says. It aint a one size fits all world.


I totally agree, even though my own personal philosophy does not find abortion savory, I fear that eliminating that choice would have far greater consequence.  Even if it were outlawed, the old coathanger, back-door doctors would come back into fashion.  Abortion has always existed, and always will for as long as there are unwanted pregnancies. Even in ancient times abortion was common, and many cities had an area designated to to the disposal of the aborted.

Even animals that give birth in unfavorable circumstance choose to kill off the litter.  Personally, I think that if those that are not in favor of choice on this issue ever get their way, those extra children should be sent to them, where they can be raised with higher moral standards than everyone else.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #189 on: April 25, 2005, 09:15:10 PM »
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Originally posted by GREENTENERAL
I fear that eliminating that choice would have far greater consequence.....

....Personally, I think that if those that are not in favor of choice  


I most certainly have not advocated "eliminating that choice". If you have read what I posted that should be clear to you unless you have absolutely no reading comprehension at all.

In fact, I don't recall anyone in this thread calling for the elimination of "that choice".
« Last Edit: April 25, 2005, 11:15:28 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline GREENTENERAL

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The Death Penalty, for it or against it
« Reply #190 on: April 25, 2005, 11:36:13 PM »
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Originally posted by Toad
I most certainly have not advocated "eliminating that choice". If you have read what I posted that should be clear to you unless you have absolutely no reading comprehension at all.

In fact, I don't recall anyone in this thread calling for the elimination of "that choice".


Sorry if that came off wrong.  My agreement with skydancer was based upon his more general statement about anti-abortionists, not you, or your argument. I should have better clarified myself, knowing that my interjection was toward the bottom of an argument.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #191 on: April 26, 2005, 08:24:23 AM »
so skyprancer... for one rape victim  to not have a baby... you would condem thousands of innocnent humans to death a year?   and yet you are horrified that maybe one or two "innocent" people might get executed a year?   It makes no sense whatsoever to me... it is orwelian.

I have nothing against abortion when it is early term but the reason has to be a lot better than convienience or not enough money at the present time.   Rape or deformities caught early would be a good enough reason for me though still repugnant.

you can't keep from screwing?  absolutely can't stop yourself and you find birth control is "confining" or it just happens to fail this time?  then carry the kid and arrange an adoption.

The people who are mostly getting abortions are white women of normal income.

How many women died of back room abortions a year before legalized abortion as birth control?   really... how many die of leagal abortions now a year?   Are we really keeping the population of poor and unwanted babies down by abortion or are we increasing it?  Do the same people to slovenly and hedonistic to not have babies then become responsible and abort or do they simply get lazy on that too until it is too late?

seems there are a lot more unwanted children and welfare mothers since birth conttrol by abortion took over.

lazs

Offline Raider179

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« Reply #192 on: April 26, 2005, 12:21:30 PM »
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Originally posted by lazs2

The people who are mostly getting abortions are white women of normal income.
 


Nope

• The need for abortion spans the economic spectrum; however, lowincomewomen are overrepresented among abortion patients. Fiftysevenpercent of women having abortions in 2000 were poor or lowincome (living at less than twice the poverty level, or less than $28,300 for a family of 3), compared with 30% of women in the general population.

http://www.agi-usa.org

Offline Maverick

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The Death Penalty, for it or against it
« Reply #193 on: April 26, 2005, 04:00:09 PM »
I nominate this thread for the most thoroughly hijacked thread of 2005.

The abortion subject should have been the subject of a second thread.
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Offline Skydancer

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The Death Penalty, for it or against it
« Reply #194 on: April 26, 2005, 05:53:39 PM »
Actualy Maverik I'm inclined to agree there. Thats what happens when you try to draw some kind of tenuous link between two different subjects to try and support your argument!

I guess I've possibly been guilty of that too but nevertheless your statement is correct.