Author Topic: Flaps, flaps, & flaps.  (Read 12848 times)

Offline gripen

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Flaps, flaps, & flaps.
« Reply #120 on: April 27, 2005, 10:51:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by dtango
It'll take me a little bit of time but I'll try another attempt at explaining it with a little bit of math. [/B]


dtango,
Well, actually the graph below shows nicely how at higher Cl values, the use of the flaps results lower drag for given Cl value ie results better turning performance. Basicly it proves your point, no maths needed ;)

Besides, the effect of the fowler flaps is not counted.

gripen


Offline Murdr

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« Reply #121 on: April 27, 2005, 10:58:31 PM »
Hi kweassa.  Just making sure Im understanding you correctly.

Are  you agreeing that flap usage in combat was recommended for the P-38 at the 8deg setting, but only for as long as it was needed to complete the maneuver, and within the specified speed range, Hanger Flying issue 6 and just probing for how often such a situation actually arose?  

The above described deployment of flaps doesnt appear in any way uncommon.  When you get to prolonged use and low speeds it does seem more dependant on certian pilot personalities as you said, but Im also browsing through some MTO escort stuff here where fights just evolved into that situation.  Which brings to mind a distingushing factor of the ETO.  ETO escort duties for the P-38 required long flights over enemy held land.  I like how Mark Shipment (who went from MTO to ETO) put it "...and we went back to the primary business of busting up the big threatening gaggles".  They were effectively teathered to their bombers, and were not to pursue the enemy once they were not a threat to the bombers.  Hence the degenerating 20k to the deck battles never evolved.  By the time the situation on the ground changed where escorts could be released to 'targets of opportunity' at some point during the mission, it was 51s and not 38's doing the escorting.
 
At any rate I can agree in part with what you were saying about McGuire specifically, and those around him.  For instance another Tilly quote regarding McGuire ""Mac told those under his command never to turn with an enemy fighter in the heavy 38 but he did it anyway with great sucess, particularly at low altitudes and low airspeeds of 90 mph."  And more of Jeffrey Ethell quoting him, "Although dogfighting in the Lightning was often played down officially, it was more common than not.  Tilley remembered 'most of our fights with the Japanese started out above 20,000 feet but damned soon everyone was milling around on the deck.  And that lovely Lightning just didn't have any competition at low altitude.  Ive flown the P-51 (liked it very much) and the P-47 (disliked it very much), and Ive engaged in mock dogfights against just about all our WWII fighter planes.  The only one the ole Lockheed Rocking Chair and I had trouble staying behind was a pretty savvy Navy type in an F4f Wildcat."

For the most part, in my opinion, the fights that either devolved to or started on the deck were prone to situations where 38 pilots used their flaps.  I think its more a matter of situation than tendancy of particular pilots across the theaters as a whole.

Offline Murdr

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« Reply #122 on: April 27, 2005, 11:02:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by killnu
i know there were some 38 sticks asking for this to begin with and not RAF or LW sticks, but i thought it was a suggestion for across the board.  so why all the drama?  its not like it was implemented or thought about by anyone that matters.  


That is correct.  I suggested an opt-out for ARF, just like you can opt-out of the stall limiter.  That would apply for all planes, not just one.

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #123 on: April 27, 2005, 11:02:57 PM »
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The last 370th combat report I quoted shows that relatively low time 38 driver using the flaps to get inside the turn of that 109 so he could get the shot on target.


He used flaps correctly.  Oscar Boesch, Heinz Orlowski, and several other members of JG 5 all told me they used flaps in exactly the same manner Lockheed recommends.  They were dropped to gain angle and quickly retracted.  Oscar flew the 109 up until 1943 and used flaps in every hard dogfight he got into throughout the war.

He outturned a P 51D in the Ardennes Offensive using them.  

The planes in the background are an entire squadron of P 51D's that bounced the 8 members of his staffle.

What we are debating is the realism of dropping flaps and leaving them down for the whole fight.  That is not how fighter pilots used them.  In AH you can continue to drop flaps for several notches and gain sustained turn benefits.  I did it yesterday in a P 47D-25 in the CT.  At three notches of flap I was easily outmaneuvering a Bf-109F4.

The side debate came about when Ack-Ack and Murdr claimed they never asked to raise the limits.  They certainly did and I am not the only one who noticed it.

I think:

1.  The "sim" should penalize pilots for improper use of flaps if we are going to simulate WWII air-to-air combat.  Not targeting the P 38, it should apply to all flaps within their design parameters.  With a few exceptions they are all pretty close though.

2.  Multiple notches of flap or large degrees of flap are completely unrealistic.  Only time I have ever heard of WWII pilots dropping full flap in combat was F4U corsairs to force an overshoot.  I cannot confirm that is even true. All maneuver flaps are in the ballpark of 10 degrees.

All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: April 27, 2005, 11:06:13 PM by Crumpp »

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #124 on: April 27, 2005, 11:11:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by dtango
If Widewing is saying that for ALL cases where you have prolonged turning with flaps in a P-38 resulting in degraded turn performance than he would be incorrect too.  This is only true for a given dynamic energy state.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs


In cases where flaps are deployed beyond 50%, you have greatly limited your ability to regain energy. Maneuver flap setting generated a substantial amount of lift, yet without a serious drag penalty, so that setting could be used as long as you wanted or needed. However, you will have limited your acceleration as well and would be working the elevator trim a lot as increases and decreases in airspeed will have a greater effect on trim, at least according to P-38 pilots I have spoken with.

As it is in the game, flaps are used to gain angles, pull lead and get positional advantage as well as defensively. Prolonged use means that you will be slow for an extended period, making you more vulnerable to any other enemy aircraft that may turn up.

Another factor is which kind of aircraft are you engaged with. Zeros, Hurricanes and Spitfire Vs present a serious challenge at low speeds. However, maintain your E advantage and they are not especially troublesome. On the other hand, 109G-10s and Doras are very capable at medium to high speeds, so these are the guys you want to get turning.

By the way, Republic defines the flaps on the P-47 as "NACA Slotted Types", whereas the P-38's flaps are classified as Lockheed-Fowler Types".

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Murdr

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« Reply #125 on: April 27, 2005, 11:12:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Murdr
That is correct.  I suggested an opt-out for ARF, just like you can opt-out of the stall limiter.  That would apply for all planes, not just one.


 By the way.  HT did see it, (over multiple threads even) and was not moved by the suggestion, so the idea itself is a moot point.

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #126 on: April 27, 2005, 11:15:40 PM »
Well yes, Murdr.

 I'm not saying the flap use impossible, nor how it is used in AH is wrong for that matter. I'm just suspicious about how common it actually was, and what the official views on such uses were inside the squadrons. That's why I had to ask Guppy in such a long winded way(since I had to cover the details..) if any such use can be considered 'the norm'.

 One thing that constantly bothers me is how much the pilots would be willing to let go of the HOTAS state and take time to fiddle with gadgets in the cockpit. I've constantly met reports and excerpts that simplifying in-cockpit operation was of supreme importance in real life, which we don't really acknowledge by playing a game.

 The USAAF were very confident with the capabilities of their planes, but there is one constant appraisal in every case inspection of LW aircraft that the simplified controls and operations, was an exampled to be followed. The Rau report I've mentioned also gives some insight on how difficult it can be sometimes for rookies or average grade pilots to start getting their plane to combat readiness.

 I've also often heard about pilots usually keeping their both hands firm on the stick/handle during combat, and they'd rarely even touch the throttle lever in most cases, much less fiddle with trim wheels or flap switch/levers.

 A gamer with a stick can extend/retract flaps, control throttle, kick rudder, adjust trim, and toggle through ordnance options at the same time, but such luxury was not of an option in real life. Most often, if the pilot would fiddle with the throttle too quick the CSU might malfunction or may cause engine detonation. We gamers also pull 3~4 G turns easily with our sticks, but I'm not sure if a real fighter pilot can cope with such G forces on a regular basis with only one hand held to the stick, and I imagine it could have been more difficult with a yoke type of control device such as the P-38 had.

 So when it comes to certain, 'advanced' techniques being mentioned as something 'common', I'm quite skeptical about it.

 
 Thus, I had to ask;

 ..in the case of the P-38s, if indeed, such practices were RELATIVELY more common amidst their ranks, as compared to other pilots of other planes, then it had to be about human influence rather than a characteristic of the plane itself.

 How the rookies or average guys would look up to dashing, vocal, leader-type pilots like McGuire or Bong.. and would want to be like him... and try their hand in practicing such techniques. Except, I am suspicious that for every pilot that had success by doing so, countless more others might have perished because he took unnecessary risks that could be simply avoided. And in the end, such reputation would work both ways that the P-38 was highly appraised by who knows how to fly them, but be considered 'not right' for average grade of pilots with very different options or duties assigned to them. When somebody comes up with a remark like, "not everone can fly like Kelsey or Huf", then there's no denying that. Not everyone can fly the P-38 like that.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2005, 11:18:01 PM by Kweassa »

Offline bunch

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« Reply #127 on: April 27, 2005, 11:21:49 PM »
Find cockpit photos & look for white arc

Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #128 on: April 27, 2005, 11:38:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
He used flaps correctly.  Oscar Boesch, Heinz Orlowski, and several other members of JG 5 all told me they used flaps in exactly the same manner Lockheed recommends.  They were dropped to gain angle and quickly retracted.


Like I mentioned before, you should take a ride with some of us experienced P-38 pilots in the game.  You'll see that we do exactly just that.  We don't just immediately drop flaps to full and fly around like that in a fight.  We use them when needed and if no longer needed to complete the maneuver or gain the angle we need, we retract them.  I don't want to be wallowing around one the deck low and slow with faster bogies around me and I certainly don't fly around with flaps always deployed.  But then you just see what you want to see and nothing more.  


Quote
What we are debating is the realism of dropping flaps and leaving them down for the whole fight.  That is not how fighter pilots used them.  In AH you can continue to drop flaps for several notches and gain sustained turn benefits.  I did it yesterday in a P 47D-25 in the CT.  At three notches of flap I was easily outmaneuvering a Bf-109F4.

The side debate came about when Ack-Ack and Murdr claimed they never asked to raise the limits.  They certainly did and I am not the only one who noticed it.[/b]



We've asked for you to show us where see say we want a raising of the limits but you fail to come up with any proof of us saying such a thing.  You know why?  Because we've never advocated that.  Again, we've advocated that the auto-retracting flaps be changed to a system that will model damage to the flaps from the stress caused by over speeding when the flaps are deployed past their rating.  This is in no way advocating a raising of the flap deployed limits to fly around with flaps fully deployed without any consequence.  

Quote
I think:

1.  The "sim" should penalize pilots for improper use of flaps if we are going to simulate WWII air-to-air combat.  Not targeting the P 38, it should apply to all flaps within their design parameters.  With a few exceptions they are all pretty close though.[/b]


Kind of funny how that's what we've been advocating all along.  If you misuse your flaps, you pay the price for doing so.  If you have your flaps out beyond 250mph then you run the very likely hood of damaging your flaps from over speeding if you don't raise them.  Or if you leave them out for extended periods at low speeds, then you run the very likely hood of being shot down because you screwed up and left the flaps deployed too long and now are a wallowing fat, slow whale on the deck ready for anyone to come along and shoot your arse down.


But then, you'll just see this as more proof that we want to raise the limits because like I mentioned, you just see want you want to see and nothing more.  


ack-ack
« Last Edit: April 27, 2005, 11:45:35 PM by Ack-Ack »
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Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #129 on: April 27, 2005, 11:45:04 PM »
Quote
If you have your flaps out beyond 250mph then you run the very likely hood of damaging your flaps from over speeding if you don't raise them.


You also have the chance of getting away with it under your system.  

How can you not see that as asking to raise the limits???

Quote
We've asked for you to show us where see say we want a raising of the limits but you fail to come up with any proof of us saying such a thing.


Can't help that your in denial.

All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: April 27, 2005, 11:47:22 PM by Crumpp »

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #130 on: April 27, 2005, 11:55:08 PM »
Woops, a fubar on my part.

 My deepest apologies to Ack. It was Tac who made the comment, not Ack;


Quote
I still say that increasing the autoretract speed by 100mph (I said AUTORETRACT, not that players can deploy flaps 100mph above that what they can now) BUT making the plane shake like a compressed mofo during those 100mph is the best solution.

 If my plane shakes I cant shoot, but at least I wont lose my flaps or lose the fight because in a tight turn with 3/4ths flaps down in a knife fight my speed indicator hits the freaking retract tickmark for a split second .. the flap pulls up as im pulling hard on the stick and the plane of course spins out of control and the guy that im about to shoot down suddenly finds a spinning 38 that was on his tail as an easy kill. Nothing can piss you off more than that.


From the 'P38' thread, page 1, post 4




Quote
Kind of funny how that's what we've been advocating all along. If you misuse your flaps, you pay the price for doing so.


 And that price is 'auto-retract', currently.

 Is that price not enough? Or is it not the type of 'price' you desire? Why is that?

 You seem to advocate a 'price' in the form of 'non-retraction, flap jamming' where the flap effects are retained throughout the maneuvering.

 HT did reluctantly suggest a different price, in the form of 'flaps breaking off', which would also sufficiently penalize flap misues for ALL planes, in that it would remove flap effects over the limit, albeit permanently. Except no P-38 pilot agrees to this one. They seem to want 'jamming' as an alternative.

 Why specifically jamming? Why not auto-retract or breaking off?

 That 'why' is self-evident, is it not? It's because if the flaps are jammed tight in that position, the future functionality ceases but the effects(stabilization, lift increase, speed brake) still remains for the time being.

 In essence, the effect remains over the speed limit of 250, resulting in limits being increased.

 Or, do you have other suggestions or preferences in terms of flap damage model aside jamming, auto-retract, or falling off? I'm guessing you don't. Or at least, not anything which might remove its effects when the set line is crossed.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2005, 11:58:43 PM by Kweassa »

Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #131 on: April 27, 2005, 11:57:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
You also have the chance of getting away with it under your system.  

How can you not see that as asking to raise the limits???

 

Can't help that your in denial.

All the best,

Crumpp



I can't help it if you're blind to anything other than what you want to see.  Again, asking for a system that models damage to the flaps from over speeding is hardly asking to raise the limits.  

The only dedicated P-38 flyer that I've seen ask for raising the limits was OIO/TAC in an older thread and he's been the only one.  For some reason you and Kweassa keep attributing things he said to either Murdr or myself.

I'm serious though about the offer of taking a ride with me in a P-38 sometime and you'll see how I use the flaps and you'll realize that you were mistaken on how we use them in the P-38 and will find that we use them just like how our RL counter-parts did.  After all, most of the training stuff I've read to learn how to fly the P-38 were RL manuals.  I don't "game the game" with the flaps, don't need to.


ack-ack
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Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #132 on: April 28, 2005, 12:06:13 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
You also have the chance of getting away with it under your system.  

How can you not see that as asking to raise the limits???

 

Can't help that your in denial.

All the best,

Crumpp


Crumpp, you are still missing the point of what they are suggesting.

Using an example from what happened to a couple of 15th FG Mustangs over Japan

"Lining up the Betty in their sights, the two Mustangs began to fire bursts as they plummeted past the 505 mph air speed redline.  At a point near pull out, with the air speed indicators near 600 mph, both planes entered compressibility.  Thomas's plane suddenly disintigrated, the wings folding back and pieces flying off.

Sparks was also about to transcend the limits of aerodynamic pressure.  "I lost complete control.  The stick was flopping around between my knees, beating the hell out of me."

As Sparks reached the moment of critical "flutter" and observed Thomas' Mustang shatter, he instinctively  pulled back on his throttle.  The buffeting stopped but the Mustang turned sideways and continued its rapid descent.  With the stick in the pit of his stomach, fighting the rudder pedals to correct the slide, he began to pull out.

Hayden Sparks had escaped the crushing dynamics of compressibility and had recovered use of his control surfaces just before he had run out of sky.  He made it back to Iwo Jima, but his P51 was junked.  Most of it's rivits had pulled loose."

My point being, that two identical aircraft, one being flown by the Group Commander and experience pilot in Jack Thomas, and one flown by his wingman Hayden Sparks, experienced the same thing.  Thomas's plane came apart,  Sparks came home.  

They both crossed the threshold of what the manual says. One paid the ultimate price and one didn't.

Suggesting some randomness to exceeding max flap speed would be the same thing.  You cross the line knowing that bad things more then likely will happen, just like those two real life 51 drivers.

Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline Murdr

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« Reply #133 on: April 28, 2005, 12:13:58 AM »
I have not read Bongs biography, so my knowlege of his tactics are limited to what was mentioned elsewhere.  What I have read has him E fighting much more than turn fighting.  Dont have it handy now, but I recall a pilot that flew with Bong remarking he had uncanny eyesight.  Bong told him they had a bogie following them and the pilot followed Bong for several minutes on the new course before he could see the bogie.  From that Id conclude Bong had amazing SA also.

Again though, my impression is they used flaps in situations where they had too.  If you were bounced on the deck, what choice did you have.  How common was that though?  I would think it was highly dependant on what squadron they were in.  Some American pilots never encountered enemy fighters in the air, while others encountered multiple flights in one sortie.

Of course in AH it is much more common to find yourself boxed in a situation you wouldnt have chosen, and still rely on the same tactics.

The ergonomics in the cockpit is an interesting point.  You mentioned Rau's report, in that he detailed the multiple steps the pilot had to go through to ready for combat.  The 474th shot cut that process by ganging switches together and moving them to the control column.  One nice thing about the flap lever itself, is that you could slide your right arm down the bent control column arm and the lever was just beside the bend.  Forward of the flap lever are just circuit breakers, and aft, but lower is the radio.  The other potruding control levers are on the left side.  It is the only flight control on the right sidewall and very conveinently placed.  It appears to be placed in an ideal position to find and operate.

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #134 on: April 28, 2005, 12:19:54 AM »
Guppy, randomness is a source of all sorts of problems in a game.

 That's not a what-if. It's a fact.

 Take the 88mms for example. People can't stand the fact that a random burst chance of a 88mm killed them in a single ping. I get killed by 88mms something like only once a month or so, and I imagine it really can't be that different to others, except others just cannot cope with the fact that some randomness caused them death.

 When random chances dwell inside the game, unlike RL there is a strong tendency for people to dwell in risky business. It's like internet card games with fake money. When playing poker or blackjack on the internet, most people take bets and risk chances that they'd never do in real life. They'd say, "hit me" when the cards are reading already "19" in a black jack game, because there is nothing to lose.

 In a sense this draws out a certain need to regulate the conditions, albeit artificially if necessary, so the illusion of the game remain true to the real life combat doctrines in a sense.

If a random chance is involved with something like flap usage, people will risk that chance aggressively, unlike in real life. If for any reason the random probability itself is a low one(like 88mm hits) then the scope of the game could be warped and twisted. If the random chance is too high, then the 'randomness' is useless.

 Whatever the case, people will complain about it, and much more harshly. They will come up with complaints that somebody was able to pull 50mph over the limit without failure, and they themselves met problems the moment it crossed 1mph over the limit.

 The line has to be drawn somewhere, and very clearly. And that line, as HTC sees fit, is the flight manuals. Crumpp's being mentioning 109s or 190s using flaps upto 400mph, except there's currently no real documented technical evidence that it's possible - and that's why I can't support it. I'd love to see it, but if the planes I like must remain under its documented limits, there is no ther way. That's about as much I expect from the great experienced P-38 pilots you, Ackack, Murdr, Tac and etc etc..