Author Topic: Flaps, flaps, & flaps.  (Read 13476 times)

Offline pellik

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Flaps, flaps, & flaps.
« Reply #165 on: April 29, 2005, 12:53:59 PM »
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
Wait guys when u are in ma im gonna threaten u to punch and bash and challenge to the DA.

I hate arrogant P38 drivers.

Look at my charts they show it so clearly.
:rolleyes:

The p38 suks and every threath about it im gonna say the word, Just as Kurt Tank does every day he speaks to me and im his chosen one.

torque and fowlerflaps don't have anything to with fligh charistics.

A 2000HP single engined planes flys just as easy as a cessna 172.

And training movies where pure propaganda

Im not paranoid

P38 drivers are just cheaters and HTC just got it wrong.

all the best( i really mean that)


All the good 38 drivers can jump into other turn fighters like the spitV or F6 and still hold their own. They arn't winning by exploiting some bug.

Offline pellik

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Flaps, flaps, & flaps.
« Reply #166 on: April 29, 2005, 01:08:40 PM »
When flaps come out lift and drag increase. Increasing lift increases the instentanious turn rate. The loss in speed kills your sustained turn rate.

The 38 is good in this situation because when it can no longer turn it gets to stall fight. At no point is the 38 turning like a zeke with flaps out, it's just turning smarter to exploit the energy difference.

Some of you seem upset that slow 38s can out turn you. This doesn't happen, the good pilots are just flying smarter then you.

-p.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2005, 01:11:17 PM by pellik »

Offline pellik

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Flaps, flaps, & flaps.
« Reply #167 on: April 29, 2005, 01:17:01 PM »
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Originally posted by MENDEZ
wow i have just read this whole thread and have stinging eye sydrome:eek:  I think im going to become a 38 jock as you guys put it. I 've been impessed by how pellik shots me down with so much ease 479th


I always give 38 drivin lessons to pretty much anybody that asks. Just find me in the MA and I'd be happy to help ya get started.

-p.

Offline StarOfAfrica2

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Flaps, flaps, & flaps.
« Reply #168 on: April 29, 2005, 03:26:33 PM »
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
You can compare the performance of the Ki-61 to that of the bf109E or the C.202.  When the Ki-61 was first seen by U.S. pilots some pilots reported them as "bf109Es with Japanese markings flown possibly flown by German pilots", while some others reported it as the C.202.  It wasn't until the Allies finally got their hands on a crashed Ki-61 that these two myths were laid to rest.


ack-ack


The Ki-61 is based on the Bf 109E design.  The Japanese acquired at least one (cant remember an exact number, have to look it up when I get home) for testing purposes.  The Ki-61 had so many teething problems because it was the only inline engine, water-cooled airplane in the Japanese stable.  The engine was a DB 601 derivative (their copy of the one they received).  They had to learn a whole new way of thinking, so to speak, with the Tony.  It was one of the fastest fighters they had developed up to that point, but because of constant mechanical problems it never saw its full potential.

Offline StarOfAfrica2

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« Reply #169 on: April 29, 2005, 03:29:12 PM »
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Originally posted by Schaden
He was clipped by his tail plane as he bailed out.


Thanks for posting that Schaden.  Just decided to read this thread today (Friday always seems so boring waiting for quitting time lol).

Offline dtango

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Flaps, flaps, & flaps.
« Reply #170 on: April 29, 2005, 03:40:31 PM »
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When flaps come out (1) lift and drag increase. (2)Increasing lift increases the instentanious turn rate. (3)The loss in speed kills your sustained turn rate.

Points 1 & 2 are correct.  Point 3 should be clarified and is more complex then that generalized statement.

Sustained turn rate is function of excess-power (power-available minus power-required).  There are 3 dynamic conditions to consider.

(1) Sustained turn at negative excess power (where power-required > power available).  Staying in this envelope means you will bleed energy eventually to the point you stall which then results in "killing your sustained turn rate" because you've bled your speed to the point that you've exceeded the critical AoA of the wing to be able to produce the lift needed to keep flying.  The degradation of sustained turn performance is a result of needing to relax your turn or pointing nose-low to regain energy to fly at a velocity at or below CLmax given the g-loading.
 
(2) Sustained turn at positive excess power (where power-required is < power available).  Staying in this envelope means you will gain energy while in a sustained turn even with flaps deployed.

(3) Sustained turn at excess power = 0 (where power-required = power-available).  This is the condition for the "best sustained turn" for an aircraft when a plane can hold a sustained turn indefinitely flaps deployed not withstanding.

Total drag as a result of g-loading (induced drag) in a turn + parasite drag determines the amount of power-required and which of the 3 dynamic conditions you're flying in.  

Dropping flaps does not automatically mean you're in condition #1 above which leads to degraded sustained turn performance.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
« Last Edit: April 29, 2005, 04:23:09 PM by dtango »
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Offline Crumpp

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Flaps, flaps, & flaps.
« Reply #171 on: April 29, 2005, 05:05:42 PM »
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Dropping flaps does not automatically mean you're in condition #1 above which leads to degraded sustained turn performance.


You're correct.  

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Total drag as a result of g-loading (induced drag) in a turn + parasite drag determines the amount of power-required and which of the 3 dynamic conditions you're flying in.


Given the P38's average CLmax,high drag, and wing loading, even with flaps down, it was not an outstanding turner compared to other WWII fighters using flaps.

Its stall actually widened the turn.  It took a very good pilot to master using that stall to cloverleaf and produce a great turn rate.  

All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: April 29, 2005, 05:09:41 PM by Crumpp »

Offline dtango

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« Reply #172 on: April 29, 2005, 11:48:47 PM »
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You're correct.

Cool ;).  Sounds like you're grasping the concept I've been trying to make clear.

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Given the P38's average CLmax,high drag, and wing loading, even with flaps down, it was not an outstanding turner compared to other WWII fighters using flaps.

I agree & never questioned this (though it's always helpful to be more specific in relative comparisons in my opinion), but wanted to help make sure that it wasn't an inaccurate aerodynamic conclusion regarding flap deployment used to make this point.

To be fair the P-38 is endowed with other attributes that could be used to differentiate it against it's opponents - some already mentioned here but that's neither "here nor there" as they say in the context of this thread.

Tango, XO
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"At times it seems like people think they can chuck bunch of anecdotes into some converter which comes up with the flight model." (Wmaker)

Offline agent 009

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Flaps, flaps, & flaps.
« Reply #173 on: April 30, 2005, 12:40:14 AM »
Well alrighty then, how bout them butterfly flaps on the Oscar & automatic flaps on the George.

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #174 on: April 30, 2005, 12:47:03 AM »
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Cool . Sounds like you're grasping the concept I've been trying to make clear.


Hasn't been anything to grasp.  

Only misconception is the one assuming the P 38 has a large advantage over any average WWII fighter.

You have taken upon yourself to chase ghost's.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline Murdr

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Flaps, flaps, & flaps.
« Reply #175 on: April 30, 2005, 12:47:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by dtango

Total drag as a result of g-loading (induced drag) in a turn + parasite drag determines the amount of power-required and which of the 3 dynamic conditions you're flying in.  
[/B]
Yes and look at the 38s high aspect ratio which leads to its tendency for relatively low induced drag.  Even with the flaps fully deployed it should be no less than 7.4.
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Originally posted by Crumpp
In all honesty, the CLmax of the P38 in landing configuration is just plain average to below average for a WWII fighter.

Where is this?
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Originally posted by Crumpp
The CLmax for the P38 is pretty unremarkable according to the NACA.  

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1946/naca-tn-1044/index.cgi?page0036.gif
I guess so with only 71% HP of later models at that altitude.

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #176 on: April 30, 2005, 12:49:23 AM »
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Where is this?


Read the NACA reports.  There are several of them on the P38.

I know you do not like this kind of news.  Sorry.

Interesting sidetrack on the 71% power.  Check out the YP-80's CLmax.

All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: April 30, 2005, 12:51:50 AM by Crumpp »

Offline Murdr

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« Reply #177 on: April 30, 2005, 12:54:15 AM »
Where is a reference to P38 landing configuration?

How is that a sidetrack?
« Last Edit: April 30, 2005, 01:01:31 AM by Murdr »

Offline dtango

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« Reply #178 on: April 30, 2005, 01:35:57 AM »
Chasing ghosts?.

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Prolonged usage had a detrimental effect on turn performance....Is absolutely true as with any flap.

You said this, which is in direct contridiction to what you agreed was also correct which is..

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Dropping flaps does not automatically mean you're in condition #1 above which leads to degraded sustained turn performance.

Flying with flaps deployed in a sustained turn, you could leave your flaps out indefinitely with no degradation of sustained turn performance where excess power >= 0.

Tango, XO
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"At times it seems like people think they can chuck bunch of anecdotes into some converter which comes up with the flight model." (Wmaker)

Offline dtango

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« Reply #179 on: April 30, 2005, 02:03:43 AM »
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The key was do the maneuver flaps drop the airspeed. According to Lockheed, YES they do. The flaps are to be used for short periods of time to complete a maneuver. Leave them down and your airspeed goes.

Here's another example of the ghosts you're claiming.  You stated the above which is inaccurate.  They only drop the airspeed when the g-load of the turn results in excess-power < 0.

As I've stated ad nauseum already where the g-load of the turn with flaps deployed results in excess-power >= 0 your airspeed doesn't go down.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
Tango / Tango412 412th FS Braunco Mustangs
"At times it seems like people think they can chuck bunch of anecdotes into some converter which comes up with the flight model." (Wmaker)