The Hovering Non Fighting KOTH Vulchers

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by Shuckins
Tequila,

So holster your invective.  

just called it as it appeared and expressed the same, I recall the ply you had with your not being able to see the radar circle, I am amuzed you found my post as abusive or venomous language used to express blame or bitter deep-seated ill will........ I have no invective to holster.

accidents / mistakes we all make, your's was the freshest in my memory to call upon

and no hard feelings

TC

[Shuckins]

Roger that.



Regards, Shuckins

[Manedew]

Well I agree with Tequila .....

_____________________
KOTH used to have rules that avoided such problems WITHOUT haveing to enforce rules like 'skirting the fight'.

The alt cap used to be lower (and a higher deck)  The orginal KOTH map they made had a deck of 2-3k mountains.

The alt-cap back then was 6k or so with 8k max ... people were supposed to cruise 2k below max alt...... to avoid issues with people zooming above cap limit.

Now apparently we have 0k deck with 8k cap ...... so you get players flying around at 7.9k avoiding fights......  This is 'skirting the fight' logicaly.

people posting here skirt fights and hang at 8K, but i'll mostly avoid throwing blame.
_________
KOTH is not supposed to be about how much E you can hold, and how many fights you can avoid.

OR maybe it is ...  if it is ... no thanks ... I'll just stop playing.
_________
So why the change without enforceing 'skirting the fight'?

KOTH used to allow much less alt ...... is 8k neescary?

I'd prefer 4k cruise and 6k zoom limit.... something like KOTH used to have (considering mountain deck).....

explaining things in game is tedious as the text buffer runs out.  Hope you understand Max ... I'm not the only one who see this and feels this way ....  

_________________
(and this has nothing to do with what happend with Lute and me,  but he avoids fights like Tequila talks about (me and Stang watched him rounds before)  So is it a surprise that i find it bitter that he can avoid fights to come hunt me then whine to Max if i fly like him?)   So all the sudden the rules get 'applied' when Lute avoids fights to hunt then whines that I'm avoiding fights?
___________________



Max should really take 'skirtting the fight' out of the rules statement if he doesn't intend to enforce it.

Bringing the alt cap down would fix it so 'skirting the fight' would not be possible by holding E.

Max you make the rules .... but if you think it's just me who feels this way .... YOUR WRONG  

and if you state a rule Max .... people expect you to enforce it logicaly.

[WMLute]

Originally posted by Manedew

(and this has nothing to do with what happend with Lute and me,  but he avoids fights like Tequila talks about (me and Stang watched him rounds before)  So is it a surprise that i find it bitter that he can avoid fights to come hunt me then whine to Max if i fly like him?)   So all the sudden the rules get 'applied' when Lute avoids fights to hunt then whines that I'm avoiding fights?
 

not that we gonna re-hash our "talk" on the bbs but.....

You will not find an instance where I am not flying to a fight, or if I AM grabbing away from a fight, it's never longer than 60 seconds.  period.  I don't avoid anything.  what you seem to miss, is that I fly the KOTH's for fun, and don't really HAVE to win anything.  No ego in it for me.  I've won koth many times, so I have nothing to prove.    As said to you (over and over) in that one instance you kept bringing up, where Stang said something to me, I was not only not past 60 seconds, BUT I had ALREADY reversed, BEFORE Stang said anything, and I was nose on to the nearest nme.  There was only one instance where Stang typed anything to that affect to me, and he was in flight, not in a tower, so don't make it sound like u2 were in god mode, timing everythign, 'cause you weren't.  Stang was in the air at that time, in my "general" area.  Sorry you have to "invent" petty crud to try and make me "look" bad, but your example is neither true, nor will it ever be.  I have, and always will, keep to the rules of KOTH.  Even the spirit of them.  You might consider me "timid" when I fight you, but hey, in a pure knife fight, you one of the best, so I don't knife fight "you".  Don't make it sound like I have ever pulled the lame stunt you pulled in the last couple rounds of the KOTH, where you just flew around, not even trying to fight, avoiding everybody, breaking the rules, flying for 3-4 min away from a con' that is right behind you.  Going out of one's way to purposefully break a rule, should get you booted, and probably not welcomed back.  Well, maybe only the ban if you do it over and over.  Oh wait, you have.  (sigh)  The only pilot that I know of in the 2yrs I have flown KOTH's to get booted out of koth for running is YOU, so please keep my name out of any talk of "running".  How many times can BigMax and everyone else  tell you that you are 100% wrong before you finally get it?

[Manedew]

Nice Rant .....

And reason I get kicked is because MAX CAN'T MAKE A DESICION

I try to be nice to Max ...... but he needs to show some action, and make some desisions ... people walk all over his so called rules.

When you state a rule people expect you to enforce it logicaly.

and yes, Lute, you fly timidedly hovering above fights JUST like TC talks about.........

Why should I be disallow from hovering  away from you? , because you all the sudden want to chase me?  

YOU HAVE YELLED FOR ME TO TURN WHEN YOU HAVE HAD ALT; WTH is that?  the time in question, When Max kicked me because HE wouldn't make a DISSISION OR CALL so I kept typeing.  Typeing trying to get some input from the CM....... Not going to happen with Max ... he's just there to watch I guess



 You and others readily admit you go after me when others are around, you ignore them time and time agin to chase me.

You readily admit you won't fight me unless you can BnZ safely, and preferably in numbers



are you really that dense .....?


and lute.... your assumptions about what I talk about with other players are just that ... assumptions  

Stang and me talked a bit about the joke KOTH has  become from hovering fight skirtters.  You were meantioned more than that one time that sticks out in your head when somoene actually called your game...........

funny how players that have skill IMHO think KOTH is becomeing a joke.  

you used to have k/d for instance to keep people form being timid too... Max just keeps tweaking the rules to be a BnZ Timid fest.... good job I guess.... just didn't think that was the idea of KOTH

[BigMax]

Originally posted by TequilaChaser
I despise the Hovering Non Fighting cherry Picking vulchers that sit and hover above the others, regardless if it is someone ....  the whole time the HOVERING TIMID vulcher is not engaging, not fighting and is saving his precius fuel avoiding any fight for a good 3 to 6 minutes

Hovering without attacking is illegal.  The pilot who is making slash/BnZ attacks and conserving "E" is acceptable.  KoTH rules do not dictate a fighting style.

Originally posted by TequilaChaser
When we fight in the KOTH tournaments we fly on the honor system, meaning Shuckins! do not fly 1/3 of the sector out of the radar circle out of con range, climb to 10k alt and come barrelling back in a max dive speed and then denie your actions and proceed to try and shoot someone down. Especially when others are calling you out on your actions constantly before you ever rev back to engage.  most of us who have participated long enough will bail or .ef at 1st sight of us going over the rule barrier without any say so from any one else. regardless if "FIGHT ON" has been called yet or not.  

In Shuckins' defense: he did tell me about not being able to see the DAR circle.  I was watching him but called to look at someone else ( i use wingman for both and switch players) and didn't see him leave the circle - so he didn't know.  The only time he broke 8K that I knew of, he ".efluffied" when asked.

Originally posted by TequilaChaser
If certian people can not fly with enough dignity to abide by the rules it be best for you to not even show up.

KoTH is about good sportsmanship... Playing within the framework set, but killing with impugnity.  Exploit any advantage that falls within the rules.

Originally posted by Nuke33
The only reason I was mentioning the dueling arena is because people are 'forced' to fight there and its a duel... I think part of KOTH is surviving, and if that means hovering around for a little bit then so be it..

Nuke33 - Hovering in book is defined as NOT engaging, and is illegal.  However, a pilot that's keeping their "E" in mind, but making attack passes meets the intent of the rules.

Originally posted by TequilaChaser
I see nothing wrong with a higher opponent B N Zing 2 or 3 lower people fighting it out,  some would call it cherry picking, that does not bother me the least

TC, I think it is the right course of action too...  I think some people feel they are doing the "sportsman like" thing by not engaging...  They are misinterpretting the rules... will address it again later in this post.

Originally posted by WMLute
About fight avoidance.  As long as your are chasing a con, you do not have to break off that con, and jump into another fight below you.  This has been argued about a lot.  Let's say myself and another pilot are both "ON" a guy, and chasing him.  We are both 1-2k back from them, but only 500' from each other.  Do we have to fight each other because we are 500' apart?  In my opinion no we do not.  We can choose to fight whomever we want.  IF we are already ON someone, and that someone tries to drag us to others fighting, we do not have to break off and fight THOSE guys.  Silly argument.  If you think about it, using that logic, the guy doing the dragging would also have to quit running, and attack those same planes he drug us to.  Makes no sense to be upset that when you drug someone to another plane, and the guy you are dragging didn't break off you start fighting the new con.  With that logic, you yourself would have to immediatly attack the new con in that situation.  

I like some of your examples and agree philosophically with most of your post.  However, I disagree here.  With a two on one situation such as this, the two are clearly working together on the one - winging and illegal.  If they were on a two-timer, I would agree since it is KoTH, and the whole purpose of the event is to beat ALL the other participants.

Originally posted by Manedew
And reason I get kicked is because MAX CAN'T MAKE A DESICION

When you state a rule people expect you to enforce it logicaly.

Mane... your bolded text should read, "MAX REFUSES TO BE MANIPULATED BY A DISGRUNTLED PLAYER." & kicked me out anyway...  & logically should be written "enforce it according to Mane's wishes".

Originally posted by Manedew
I try to be nice to Max ...... but he needs to show some action, and make some desisions ... people walk all over his so called rules.

LOL, Don't even go there... I think everyone had a fairly good time except you.

My comments:

• It concerns me that TC made his post...  He is always there and has never had a negative comment...
• This message board is the proper place to have this discussion - not during a KoTH where it impacts the other players' enjoyment of the event - I was wrong to let that happen.
• I'm glad we got a positive comment out of all this... lower the Alt Cap...  I'm not sure I agree completely, but if the players want it - we can try it.  (6K?)  Cruise and zoom alt limits add to other enforcemnt problemsand shouldn't be used (we tried it).
• 2 timers - Will make another post to address this.
• "SPORTSMAN LIKE" - In KoTH, sportsmanlike is defined as flying within the constraints of the rules & having the integrity to remove yourself from the round if you vilolate any.

What is "sportsmanlike"?

• Respecting "No Joy" calls
• EFing when you went over the ALT CAP, even if noone called you on it.
• Allowing adequate seperation
• A hearty "S" to victor or vanquished

What is NOT "sportsmanlike"?

• Skirting fights
• Running/Refusing to engage
• Delivering disparaging remarks to/about other players
• knowingly viloating the rules
• Firing guns after your plane has received terminal damage
• Winging
• grudges

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by BigMax


My comments:

• It concerns me that TC made his post...  He is always there and has never had a negative comment...
• This message board is the proper place to have this discussion - not during a KoTH where it impacts the other players' enjoyment of the event - I was wrong to let that happen.
• I'm glad we got a positive comment out of all this... lower the Alt Cap...  I'm not sure I agree completely,

[/B]

I may have sounded a bit harsh in my comments BigMax,  some things mentioned are repeatedly happening though.......I don't mind a cherry pick  or someone BnZing or even people trying for a HO attempt....I may not like these type things but I accept them because they will and are going to happen

the skirting the fight and hovering without engaging has actually always happened to a degree, but the last 3 or 4 KOTHs have revealed even more of the aforementioned actions.

I offered up sort of an apology to Shuckins, I to recalled his troubles after he mentioned them.

I know myself, one can not stop all the smack talk or bickering, but  at times during the tournament it gets out of hand and especially when people do not use the appropriate text channel...ie...use  Purple Text channel ( Room/Local Range ) to dispute not the Country channel ( green Channel text ) while the round is still underway, for that matter not argue and fuss while others are still competeing for the round.

I should try to finish my KOTH terrain I started or ask DUX to get us one working again, this may solve a few problems.  Lower Alt CAP is questionable in my opinion,  but I am only 1 vote

I am just a participant expressing my opinions / views in the way that I see things happening. I appreciate all the effort BigMax gives forth to host this event  and only express my views to help him in his Hosting of the KOTH tournaments.

TC
The Damned Air Group  

[BigMax]

TC,
I have thick skin...  Harsh comments don't bother me at all...

Any and all objective commentary is needed to keep KoTH going...  I get irritated sometimes by some of it, so I walk away and read it again later...  People wouldn't take the time to post about KoTH if they didn't care about our event.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion...  The players and their opinions have made KoTH what it is...

[WMLute]

Originally posted by WMLute
Let's say myself and another pilot are both "ON" a guy, and chasing him. We are both 1-2k back from them, but only 500' from each other. Do we have to fight each other because we are 500' apart? In my opinion no we do not. We can choose to fight whomever we want. IF we are already ON someone


Originally posted by BigMax
I like some of your examples and agree philosophically with most of your post.  However, I disagree here.  With a two on one situation such as this, the two are clearly working together on the one - winging and illegal.  If they were on a two-timer, I would agree since it is KoTH, and the whole purpose of the event is to beat ALL the other participants.

Just a quick clarification on this point.  

Let's say I am fighting someone, and see another con closing in on the fight, and or going for me in specific.  I maneuver so that both con's end up on my 6.  They are both now 1k back ish, but next to each other.  Are you saying they have to break off the fight with me, and attack each other because they are closer to each other then to me?  Or are they not allowed to both stay on me, their intended target.

Or even, if I dive in and attack someone, and they are in a fight, and I miss my 1st shot, and maneuver hard for the 2nd, and end up being right next to the 3rd guy.  Are you saying that I have to break off my intended target and go for the now nearer target?

If two guys are both attacking the same target, I would not consider that winging.  THAT was the point I was trying to make.  At what point do they have to (if they even do) break off their intended target and attack each other?

[GreenCloud]

I dont have a problem with the way KOTH has been..

I do wish we had the old canyon OF Death bak tho..


Mane..i understand what you mean..but you coem off liek such a diqwad soemtimes..

To say Peopel walk all over mAx is complete crap..I have played this for a long time..and have never seen or experinced such "problems" as you say


KOTH is a bad way to tell you whos the best..If thats what you lookn for..got to the http://www.flighladder.com


KOTH is about CHerry pikn ...extending for 58 seconds..and getting lucky with some skill mixed in of fending off multiple cherry pickers at the same time


just  reading what you and lute were writng made me want to puke

IF you gusy see soem guy not engaging,,,you call it out..If its repeeated ..FILM IT......and .wingman his *** and kill him...


Theres nothing illegal about .wingman...

KOTH is the most unfair/fair  figth you will find in AH

[BigMax]

Originally posted by WMLute
Just a quick clarification on this point.  
Are you saying that I have to break off my intended target and go for the now nearer target?

If two guys are both attacking the same target, I would not consider that winging.  THAT was the point I was trying to make.  At what point do they have to (if they even do) break off their intended target and attack each other?

Point taken...  In the example you just gave, I would say no, under those circumstances...  However, if it continued for any substantial length of time, and said defender reversed, and the pair continued to follow in unison - then it would be...  Personally, if I wound up next to a guy, 500', and I'm chasing another at 1500'.  I would consider the close plane to be more of a threat and would be working out a way to kill him, & maintain position on plane #1 - which I thinki s the absolute correct way to look at it.  Certainly, if he passed in through my firing arc while pursuing plane #1, he would feel my "parts remover" being applied.
- I'd have to say that this is a very unique situation where one does not have some type of advantage on another - rarely happens.  Someone will be carrying a lil more smash and will pop out front - if that happens and you don't attack, it's winging.  I guess shoot/don't shoot is more telling than anything.

Concisely stated:  If one of the two pursuers passes an obvious opportunity to kill the person beside him/her, then I must consider them to be winging...  (Only exception would be if plane #1 has 2 round wins).  It's a judgement call, that I have to make occassionally, but that is my bottom line.  We couldn't possibly address every possible scenario...